An episode of “Changing the Conversation” podcast
Meghan Hetfield and Jarmichael Harris share harm reduction approaches to supporting people who use drugs in improving their quality of life with host Kristen Harper.
May 17, 2021
Kristen Harper, Host: [00:05] Hello. Welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host today, Kristen Harper, woman in recovery and recovery specialist at C4 Innovations. Our topic today is Dr. Carl Hart’s new book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear. Our guests today are Meghan Hetfield, recovery specialist with WEconnect and Jarmichael Harris, founder and CEO of Engage Recovery. Good morning you all, how are you?
Meghan Hetfield, Guest: [00:31] Good morning, Kristen.
Jarmichael “Jay” Harris, Guest: [00:33] Good morning. Doing well.
Kristen: [00:35] Let’s just jump right into it and just go ahead and judge a book by its cover. The title, that has definitely struck a chord with all sorts of populations, Drug Use for Grown-Ups. How did it hit you when you first saw this new book when it was released? Jay, what did you think?
Jay: [00:54] Me? Pretty familiar with Dr. Carl Hart’s work, teaching a class that uses one of his textbooks and things of that nature. I was really excited about the book, but I think for me, I wish he had led with the subtitle, Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear, rather than the bold headline of Drug Use for Grown-Ups. But we’ll talk more about that later I’m sure.
Kristen: [1:16] Meghan, what did you think?
Meghan: [1:18] Oh, I’ve been a fan of Dr. Hart’s work for a while, and he’s from Miami, and so am I, so I’ve followed his career pretty closely and have been pretty familiar through the harm reduction world with his work. And I love the title. I think it’s shocking. I think it grabs your attention. I think it did send a shockwave through the recovery community and people were immediately like, what? There’s no such thing. You can’t. There’s no grownup way to do drugs. Drugs are bad and just really doubled down on that binary way of looking at drugs. And I think that’s exactly what the intention was of the title, and I think it’s really effective.
Kristen: [1:54] Yeah. The more that I researched him, I had originally actually even met Dr. Hart probably five or six years ago up in DC at a SAMHSA event. And now that he’s an endowed chair at Columbia University and neuroscientist, I’ve seen a couple of his YouTube videos and love his approach to stopping the abuse of drug users. We talk so much about abuse of drugs, let’s talk about the abuse of drug users, but I do feel like the title kind of distracts a little bit from the message. I don’t know, in your work, I know you’re a harm reductionist, Meghan, a peer recovery support specialist. That’s a really interesting intersection. Can you talk to us a little bit about the feels that we get on the recovery side from a title like that?
Meghan: [2:40] Yeah, there’s this great divide, it seems, between folks who are practicing abstinence as their recovery pathway, which is beautiful and wonderful and obviously we’re celebrating. And then there’s folks who take a more natural approach or a harm reduction approach where substances might be a part of their life, but in a non-chaotic way. And I think the folks from the more harm reduction, natural recovery side, automatically understood it. Yes, it’s the fact that drugs are illegal that make them so harmful, not the drugs themself. Whereas the abstinence based recovery folks kind of took it personal. Well, drugs ruined my life or they killed my child, and this is just wrong. And really just saw it in this very binary right versus wrong way. When we know that in life there’s gray area, there’s middle ground, there’s everyone has their own autonomy and their own path. In the recovery community, we always talk about there being multiple pathways to recovery, but sometimes when we actually spell out what that looks like, it can get kind of prickly.
Kristen: [3:39] What was your overall takeaway from the book, Meghan?
Meghan: [3:44] My overall takeaway is that it’s very, very clear in Dr. Hart’s book and so many others that the criminalization of drugs is a social justice issue. It’s used to historically oppress people of color, Black and Brown people across America, throughout history and the only way to stop that oppression and that disproportionate arrest and criminalization is to legalize them or at least decriminalize them. And I think he makes some really valid points on the positive effects of drugs and that when used safely, that a lot of these drugs aren’t quite as harmful as we’re taught to believe.
Kristen: [4:22] Jay, how about you?
Jay: [4:23] Yeah. I’ll go back to the subtitle, Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear. I think that fear has led policy for so long. And if we get to a place where we can separate the two. Again, leading with education, leading with compassion, we really find ourselves in a place that will restructure and redevelop policy in a way that recognizes humanity and not criminalize every person who ever picks up a substance, even alcohol.
Kristen: [4:57] Yeah. I do think that also a layer of this is that Dr. Hart is a Black American. And Jay, I wonder if through your reading of the book as a Black man in America, if you were struck by some of that personally in your own lived experience as well?
Jay: [5:12] Yeah. For me, I’m thinking about the initial shock of the what I’ll call the tabloid headline. That this thing, Columbia University professor and researcher, casually uses heroin. Oh my God. The shock value of that. And even within the African-American community, especially for those of us who are actually doing substance use as a recovery work or treatment work, it really struck me differently how unaccommodating in a lot of ways some of the reactions were. And I could not help but wonder if Dr. Carl Hart was not a Black dreadlocked, gold toothed man, if it would not be received much differently from maybe one of his white counterparts. For me, that was what really struck a chord with me. And I was like, all right, not only do I already know what this man’s stance is in the work that he’s been doing, but we’ve been looking towards his name and his voice for years on these topics. Now, all of a sudden we have an issue with what he’s saying? Has no one been listening to what he’s been saying all this time?
Jay: [6:28] Because after reading the book, I was like, yeah, I have not seen anything that was groundbreaking that he said, if you listened to anything that he said over the last five or 10 years. And I think that was the part for me that really struck a nerve, especially around the simple fact that, in his textbook and other works that he’s done, Ted Talks, he points exactly to that point you were making, Kristen, about, hey, it’s the way we treat drug users that really needs to change. The laws have been the laws because we could point back to all the racist stuff that has led us to that point in general, but the ultimate point being, where’s your compassion for people? And I think this is what this book really gets at.
Kristen: [7:17] Yeah, absolutely. Even in the history, if we look back at the history that he touched on a little bit, going back as far as the Civil War and right after the Civil War with the influx of opioids into states like California and New York and the racist stigma that was attached to Chinese Americans that were immigrating and these opioid den concepts. Meghan, I’m curious, in your work as a harm reductionist in other countries, what seems to be some of the more innovative ways that they’re addressing safe consumption sites, syringe exchange, those types of things, and then if somebody does actually meet criteria for addiction, safe treatment?
Meghan: [8:02] Other countries are really handling their drug issues a lot better than ours. Portugal, for example, is famous for their decrim model. They decriminalize all drugs when they realized they had the worst heroin problem in all of Europe. They were able to decriminalize all drugs and offer folks a way to safely get treatment instead of being incarcerated. And that’s one way of doing this. But obviously, that doesn’t take away, there’s also something called the Portugal paradox, which is they decriminalized all drugs, but they’re still against the law. You still have to deal with unsavory people. The fact that they’re illegal is what causes all the violence and the brutality, all the cartel violence that happens at our border. All of that could be avoided if drugs were actually legalized in a thoughtful way. Portugal is a great example, but there is the other side of it.
Meghan: [8:55] Other countries have heroin prescription programs where people who really would like to continue using heroin are able to do that in a safe way and actually get it prescribed by a doctor. The correct dose, diacetyl morphine, it’s safe, as long as it’s not combined with other drugs. And someone is pretty healthy and they’re being monitored by professionals. These people, when they go to get their dose, they also get access to social workers and therapists, and people are going to help them find something in their life that is worth living for, is worth dealing with the trauma and unpacking the reasons why these substances are needed. People are in pain, whether it’s emotional pain or physical pain. And sometimes they find these drugs that are helpful for them.
Meghan: [9:38] And as we know, we could want someone to stop using, but if they don’t want to, they’re not going to, even if we put them in prison. We do still have drugs in prison. I really like looking at these programs that offer a safe supply, a way for people to have access to a safe supply while they’re taking a look at their drug use. Look, my drug use may be a little chaotic. Let’s take a minute. Let’s look at this. Let’s look at a holistic approach to this instead of it just being a binary of you have an addiction or you don’t. Let’s unpack the nuances of each individual and find out what’s behind this use.
Kristen: [10:15] Yeah. That’s such a good point. Having worked in the recovery space for 15 years, I feel like some of the diagnostic criteria, from DSM-5 and some of the clinical work, and Jay you’re a clinician. I feel like we have potentially been over-diagnosing or misdiagnosing substance use disorder in individuals that may not actually meet criteria. And so I know Dr. Hart really talks about that point quite a bit in how are we separating out the nuances between drug use and actually meeting criteria for addiction? I am a great example of somebody that has used drugs unsuccessfully, because I have high rates of anxiety, am diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. I have traumatic experiences. I think in Dr. Hart’s book, he points out some of those examples specifically for individuals who have those types of co-occurring situations to really consider seriously their drug use. Jay, in your work, especially with young adults on college campuses, how are you guys kind of parsing out the prevention work with harm reduction and then maybe making recommendations for a full blown abstinence based recovery?
Jay: [11:27] Yeah. I think one of the things that we see at East Carolina University, Greenville, North Carolina is really, is trying to meet students where they are. I think back to summer orientation, when we’re presented with 4,000 incoming students, and we have to get this information out about health and wellness and substance use and safe sex, all these things. At 4,000 students, you have 4,000 different personalities and probably just as many students using on the spectrum from complete abstinence to way too much. And trying to figure themselves out, trying to figure out life in that process. And so we do an overarching kind of prevention work that is really rooted in harm reduction in and of itself from just from jump. And that’s really similar around education, which Carl Hart speaks a lot about throughout his book and his work, is first and foremost, we still have to educate individuals about what they’re putting in their bodies, not from this fear monger hyperbole, oh my God, you smoke one joint, you’re going to die. We know that is not accurate so why are we spreading that message?
Jay: [12:48] And there’s a particular governor who just recently gave that message and I’m like, why? But in that, so our services, we kind of do the overview of prevention that is rooted in harm reduction and then also recovery work that is also rooted in harm reduction. And I think February 2020, we actually partnered with our North Carolina Harm Reduction Coalition as well as our campus student health services to offer naloxone free of charge to our students, faculty, and staff on campus. And that has been a huge initiative that I’m actually glad it happened. It happened literally right before everything shut down for the pandemic, but I know that over the last several months, individuals have actually gone in to access that resource. And so hopefully we’ve saved a life or two over the course of the pandemic.
Jay: [13:41] And when I say that, going back to Meghan’s point about multiple pathways of recovery, understanding that harm reduction does not exclude abstinence at all. And so helping students make informed decisions about what works best for them. And I know that that really touchy, but that’s how we approach it. And that’s how we work with it. And I think that as students, especially our first and second year students, being kind of talked down to and infantized so often they enjoy and appreciate the fact that we speak with them as adults and allow them to make informed decisions about what they’re doing, not just now while they’re in school, but helping them to lay a groundwork for the rest of their lives.
Kristen: [14:29] Yeah, and that really speaks to the subtitle of the book. That really gets to the heart of Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear. And I’m a little bit older than you both. I’m a product of the war on drugs. Nancy Reagan just say no. DARE programs in schools of the eighties. And I even used to wear the t-shirt DARE when I was getting high back in the day because I thought it was funny. And I just, that just say no, the egg cracking on the pan, obviously it did not work for me. And that truly came from a place of fear. We thought if we could scare kids to death then they wouldn’t do drugs. Well, we didn’t take into the account of all these social determinants of health. We didn’t take into account the way that trauma plays into this. We didn’t take into account so many other issues.
Kristen: [15:17] Meghan, in your work, I’m curious, especially in your personal experience, kind of coming to that place, you mentioned earlier about finding out that your approach had not been maybe the best or way you would have approached it now. Can you talk to us a little bit about that realization of changing your belief system on drug use and recovery support?
Meghan: [15:33] Sure. Kind of how Jay was really well, explaining very articulately, how they meet these kids where they’re at with their each individual needs and using harm reduction and fact based education. I really feel like that’s something that was missing in my personal journey too. I was one of those kids as a teenager that was kind of rebellious and was self-medicating for some trauma and PTSD and just self-esteem issues. And just one of those angsty teens that kind of hated themselves for a multitude of reasons. And like a lot of us, I found that drugs really quieted that and made me feel better about myself, more outgoing and unfortunately as does happen, my use became a bit chaotic, and I was told by a professional at 18 that I was an addict.
Meghan: [16:25] I have a disease, and I’m going to have it for the rest of my life. And the only cure was for me to go to this 12 step program, get a sponsor and attend them for the rest of my life or I was going to end up homeless, addicted to heroin. He just gave me this really horrible prophecy at 18 when I was just a very sad, depressed, traumatized young kid. And I think this is something that we do all the time still to this day. I really like the Drug Policy Alliance. They have this new curriculum called Safety First and it’s a prevention curriculum for teens that’s rooted in harm reduction that meets kids where they’re at. Look, we get that some of you are going to experiment with drugs. Here’s how to do it as safe as possible. Yes, these drugs are dangerous, but when you combine these two, it’s actually very, very dangerous so don’t do that. And there’s ways you can test your drugs. You can try that and make sure to have naloxone, know how to use it because we have a poisoned drug supply.
Meghan: [17:20] I really feel like if those things had been introduced to me at a younger age, I’d be a lot more likely to have embraced incremental positive change, rather than this expectation that I never was able to do drugs or drink ever again my whole life. And I think when I first entered recovery and entered this field, I had a pie in the sky view of what recovery looked like for everybody else, because that was the only thing that had worked for me because I hadn’t been offered any other option. And I sort of really did some thinking and visited some harm reduction outreach centers down in New York City and saw the way that works and how people can come as you are, even in your chaotic drug use, we still have a place for you.
Meghan: [18:00] You can come, you can do acupuncture, you can get safe use supplies. You can go to groups, you don’t have to be abstinent. When I learned that there was a middle way of meeting someone’s chaotic drug use and addressing them as an individual, it really opened my eyes to my own past and things that could have been done differently.
Kristen: [18:17] Yeah. Thank you so much for that, Meghan. It reminds me of that part in the book where Dr. Hart touches on some of the previous studies that we’ve constantly gone back to-the rat study. The rat study is basically this study that was done many, many years ago, where rats were put in cages by themselves and given two water bottles, one with cocaine, one without and of course a rat would choose the one with cocaine more than not, but it was replicated except it had some updates to it. Several years later, another researcher took a look at it and did the two water bottle situation again, but created these rat heaven cages with other rats so they could socialize and hammocks for rats. And hey, kind of this rat sort of just dream castle. Rat dream castle instead of Barbie Dream Castle.
Kristen: [19:10] And the researcher found that the cocaine was not selected as much. And so, I think that that really speaks to again, going back to social determinants of health and people’s environments and the layers of racism and redlining of neighborhoods and the way the criminal justice system has treated Black and Brown people related to drug use. I just wanted to also touch base with you all about that piece too. How can we actually make an impact around this idea of improving our environments and quality of life instead of focusing on the drug use? Jay, your thoughts about that?
Jay: [19:50] For me, I think it really just starts with again, understanding what the people need. And I think back to the nineties and the crack epidemic and policing seems to be the answer for a lot of individuals, but they weren’t given a menu of options either. It was basically, hey, you allow these drugs and drug dealers to continue ruining your neighborhoods or you allow us to come clean it up. But there was no real talk or conversation around bettering the schools. There was no talk around providing afterschool programming. There was no menu of options. It was, hey, you keep suffering or allow us to come in. And ultimately us coming in was bringing even more suffering than they were probably initially dealing with. And I think that’s a huge part of the conversation that I think is not being had very often.
Jay: [20:52] I love collegiate recovery because collegiate recovery is about options. It is about connecting with young people, students in particular, hearing what their needs are, hearing what they are looking for. And then when I’m learning as building a newer program, we’re only been around for about five years, but most students don’t know what it is they want because they don’t know what’s available to them. When I’m able to actually say, “Hey, did you know that in this area or this school, they have X, Y, and Z? Which part of these options are you interested in? Or over at this school, they’re doing this, this, and this.” And when we have a conversation around, all right, we think this will work for our school. We think that’s going to work. We really like this idea, but we know that it isn’t going to fit our demographic, and we custom build our program around what we thought was best. And the collective, hearing from the voices of the students who were receiving the services.
Kristen: [21:53] Yeah, Meghan, I know that in your work with WEconnect, you are actually able to offer resources and suggestions and services virtually. Similar to what Jay’s doing on a college campus, you’re doing it through the digital world, which I think is so cool. Can you tell us more about that?
Meghan: [22:11] Sure. WEconnect is based off of a concept called contingency management, which is a rewards based program where people are rewarded for behaviors that they self-identify as being helpful for them. They set their own goals and for each goal they reach, they get rewarded with Amazon gift cards, and we’re able to do this through an app. And as a peer for WEconnect, I can meet with folks on Zoom. I can text with them. I can message them through the app and help them come up with the plan. It’s their goals, it’s their plan. I’m just there to support them and help them figure out what’s going to help enhance their life. What does wellness look like for them? And it’s a really awesome low barrier, low threshold way to support someone’s wellness, to support their recovery, to walk beside them and help them to sort of get connected to resources.
Meghan: [22:59] And it’s really amazing because we’re able to support people all over the country, even though I’m based here in New York state, I can be on Zoom with somebody all the way down in Texas or all the way across the country on the West Coast. And it’s really great. And we also host eight online recovery support meetings a day, including a harm reduction focused meeting on Fridays at 1:00 PM. And we have people attending those meetings from all over the world. It’s incredible. I think 2,000 different people a day log into these meetings and these are open to the general public. You don’t have to be a member at WEconnect in order to attend these meetings. It’s just been a really incredible way to connect with folks, meet them where they’re at and whatever change they’re looking to work on, we can talk about it. There’s no judgment.
Kristen: [23:46] That’s awesome. I’m curious what both of you are seeing as some of kind of the higher requested services, both within harm reduction and of course, throughout the spectrum of recovery intervention treatment, what are the hot topics right now in your work?
Jay: [24:03] Really in eastern North Carolina, there’s not a whole lot of options. I think my students are mostly intrigued with learning that there are other meetings outside of 12 step. Thankful to this new virtual space that we’re in, where I could not necessarily get a Smart meeting to Greenville. Our students can log into Smart, and they can log into Recovery Dharma or Refuge Recovery. And that’s been really kind of ey-eopening for us to listen to, kind of exciting to see. I believe one of our students was actually leading a Recovery Dharma meeting now on Sundays, and she’s really excited about that.
Meghan: [24:42] For me, I’d say because of this poisoned drug supply, the fentanyl that’s contaminating our drug supply, it’s being pressed in pills, it’s in all powder substances, I think crisis management and just connecting people to naloxone and fentanyl test strips has become increasingly common. It used to be that you could have a period of abstinence and have a recurrence, a return to use and survive that. And all it was was just a little hiccup or whatever, a moment of shame sometimes for people. But now people are actually overdosing because of the fentanyl. And we’re all aware of this issue. And it’s one of the other reasons I talk so much about safe supply, even though it can be kind of a controversial topic, but in the last few years doing this work, that’s the most common thing I’m up against is people experiencing overdose over and over. And some of them don’t make it.
Meghan: [25:31] I’m going to a funeral on Saturday of someone who I used to support as a peer in my last job. And this is just happening all the time. I’m in rural New York. I’m not in a big city, and it’s really prevalent up here. I think just meeting people where they’re at with harm reduction supplies, fentanyl test strips. I’m lucky to be connected with NEXT Distro down in New York City, which is a mail order harm reduction supply agency that sends things for free in the mail. They’re doing big things down there, just trying to get people safe and keep them alive long enough to figure out what health looks like to them. What does wellness look like to them? Does it look like recovery? Does it look like abstinence? Like Jay said, abstinence is a form of harm reduction. Sometimes abstaining from substance is the best way for us to stay safe. But we don’t know that if we don’t survive these relapses, these overdoses long enough to figure that out.
Kristen: [26:21] Absolutely. I think I’ve had four close friends over the past year in 2020 and early ’21 that have actually passed away from an overdose. It’s scary right now just with the isolation. Of course, 2020 is known as the pandemic year, and it’s been heightened in certain senses that I’m so grateful for the applications in digital services like WEconnect and folks that have been on the ground, like you Jay, that are trying to connect students any way you can. I’m curious if you all, I know Jay, you tried to reach out to Dr. Hart through Twitter. And so I’m curious if we actually could get him to come on and join us for a part two or something, what question, one question, what would you like to ask Dr. Hart?
Jay: [27:09] I think I would like to have a conversation around trauma, in particular childhood trauma. I know that his book did not give very much real estate to that conversation at all, because he was speaking primarily to and about adults. But as a licensed clinical addiction specialist, understanding that substance use is a symptom of additional mental health issues and typically not the cause of such. Where does that rubber really meets the road? And how do we best support a community in the midst of trauma, pain, hurt, a pandemic, where isolation, depression, all of these things, anxiety are at an all time high at this moment? And now here’s this book where he gives a nice disclaimer saying, “Hey, drugs don’t need an advocate,” but also it’s kind of really counterproductive to the work that is currently being done right now to address some of these things. That would be the conversation I would like to have.
Kristen: [28:22] Thanks, Jay. Meghan, how about you?
Meghan: [28:26] I think probably the single bravest, most revolutionary thing he’s done with this book is self-disclose his drug use, his substance use. And I would like to know how we can get more people in positions of power to self-disclose. Is it going to take legalization? Is that the only way it’s going to happen? Kind of like conservative, Republican Speaker of the House, John Boehner, year after year condemned cannabis use and then he’s one of the biggest investors now in that industry. Is it going to take legalization and financial motivators to get people in positions of power to start to self-disclose? Or do you think there’s a way we can inspire a movement to get more folks to self-disclose so that we can have a safe supply and stop the bleeding, so to speak, with this mass drug poisoning event that we’re in the middle of in America today.
Kristen: [29:20] Both of those sound like amazing conversations to have. That was fantastic. I know you’re both like me, and we’re kind of dealing with some pretty high level of stress on a daily basis through our work. I’ve been having to kind of up my sort of self-care the past year or so and really kind of check in. How are you all taking care of yourselves right now and staying in? How do you just keep going? Jay?
Jay: [29:45] For me, it’s been working out. But then when I was forced not to necessarily have that option is what I realized, just how much that meant to me. And so that was tough. The first several months, honestly, were not good. I felt my mental health in a not very good place, and it didn’t help that we had all the other kind of social justice issues happen all at the same time. And I didn’t have some of my go to outlets. Thankfully, as things have kind of loosened up and lessened up, I’ve been able to get to the gym most weeks, anywhere between three and five days a week. And that’s been really helpful. Having that be a part of my routine, keeps me in a healthy place so I could give to others.
Kristen: [30:37] Thanks, Jay. Meghan how about you?
Meghan: [30:39] Kind of physical activity used to be a big part of my personal wellness. I was one of those crazy trail runners that pay money to run uphill till our toenails fall off and anything above a marathon, crazy stuff, but I’ve experienced some injuries in the last few years, and I’m not really able to reach for that. And it was getting kind of tough. I identified a lot with what Jay was saying. When that wasn’t available to me, things got ugly really quick.
Meghan: [31:04] My mental health was slipping a lot, but luckily I want to say the fall, the spring or fall right before the pandemic, I connected with this amazing community called Harm Reduction Works. There are scripted mutual aid meetings for harm reduction that have gone viral, and I have this community of people in my backyard, but also all over the world that I meet with a couple times a week, touch base. I have people I can call and just going into this community with both feet, taking on hosting two meetings a week and just meeting all these people and watching people sit down and finally feel at home in a space. And it feels safe in a space to talk about what wellness really looks like for them, has been a huge part of my mental health.
Meghan: [31:43] And also another thing I’ve learned during pandemic is how to say no. How to say, “Today’s not a good day. I just don’t have space for that. I can’t take on that commitment right now. I really want to be a part of this planning committee, but I’m just not doing good right now.” That’s been a big lesson for me in the past year too, is just learning when I’ve got too much on my plate and that’s how I really try to stay well is making boundaries for myself and staying connected with my peers.
Kristen: [32:09] Well, I’m really grateful that you all are taking care of yourselves because I need you in my network for sure. Thank you so much for this conversation today. I’ve really enjoyed it. I can’t wait until we meet Dr. Hart someday. I’m just going to put it in the universe that it’s actually going to happen, and we’ll sit down and have a cup of coffee with him. Thank you, Jay, and thank you, Meghan, for joining us today.
Jay: [32:31] Thank you so much for having us.
Meghan: [32:32] Thanks so much, Kristen.
Kristen: [32:33] And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer: [32:37] Visit c4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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