An episode of “Changing the Conversation” podcast
Ronitia Hodges and Ashley Stewart discuss the importance and benefits of fostering an authentic and inclusive environment in the workplace. This episode is sponsored by the New England Mental Health Technology Transfer Center Network (MHTTC).
July 17, 2023
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Ashley Stewart, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dr. Ashley Stewart, director of Health Equity at C4 Innovations. This episode is sponsored by the New England Mental Health Technology Transfer Center or MHTTC. Our topic today is belongingness in the workplace. My guest is Ronitia Hodges. She is the senior project manager at C4 Innovations and is joining us from sunny Florida. Roni, thank you so much for being here with us today.
Ronitia “Roni” Hodges, Guest (00:36): Thank you for having me.
Ashley (00:37): Absolutely. So I thought a good place for us to start or to kick off this conversation is what does belongingness mean to us? So what does belongingness mean to you?
Roni (00:47): Belongingness to me is the desire to be a part of something bigger. Like you want to be a part of the larger society, your community, your workplace. They have a song, “One of these things is not like the other.” [Laughter.] But belonging is really wanting to feel like you belong even if you are not like the others.
Ashley (01:08): Yeah, that resonates with me too. It makes me also think that a big part of belongingness is feeling like when you’re in these spaces, you are valued in how you show up. And I think some of the conversations that we’ve been having around belongingness in this work have been around people being present, but really wanting to be included and seen for the uniqueness of who they are. And so those things come all together. We’ve done this work in a lot of different capacities, but recently we’ve been focusing on it in the workplace. So what do you think are some of the features or factors that people should consider when it comes to belongingness in the workplace? What does that look like?
Roni (01:56): Belongingness in the workplace to me looks like feeling supported from the top down. Folks that work next to you and the folks who work in the C-suite. Being able to show up as your whole self every day, not feeling like you have to put on a certain face or attitude or just persona to be in the workplace. So it’s important that you feel supported in that at every level so that you come and show up as your whole self and be productive and be you.
Ashley (02:29): That’s so good. That’s so good. I’ve seen some really awesome quotes from some research that talks about exactly what you’re saying. When people feel like they’re able to be their fullest self, that’s where creativity and innovation and boldness engagement comes from in the workplace. And I love how you framed it because it really helps people understand that it’s about being able to be present, but being able to really thrive and be the best version of yourself because you feel like you belong. So yeah, I think that’s so important. What are some of the issues that you’ve seen in doing this work related to belongingness in the workplace? This is either things that you’ve experienced yourself or maybe some of the things that you’ve observed as you’ve worked on this topic area.
Roni (03:22): Yeah, I mean, I think people feeling like they can’t show up as themselves. So coming to a workplace and feeling as a woman with natural hair, that I need to press my hair before I go for an interview or I need to appear a certain way. I need to maybe wear something that’s more appealing to the norms, the culture norms, white standards of beauty in a workplace. Thinking about maybe as a Black male, I have ways I need to wear a do-rag. Being able to do that if I need to, if it’s not impacting my work, being able to show up as my whole self and navigate in the way that I do talk and the way that I talk. And I feel like I have to speak the king’s English to have a conversation, but being able to speak in the way that I do, that flows naturally for me and it makes it easier for me to be productive, to get what I need to get done and show up for myself.
(04:12): And it allows other people who come into the organization who look like me to feel like they can do that too. It’s really setting a standard. So being able to do that for yourself, you’re also doing it for others.
Ashley (04:24): That’s it. That’s it. You’re also doing it for others. It makes everything better. It enhances it for you as a person, but also everyone else in the environment because it gives that permission for folks to really show up. That’s so good. It takes a lot of energy. People talk about, it takes a lot of energy to code switch. It takes a lot of energy to think about how you’re standing or positioning your body or how you said that or how you should say that or what tone… That is taking away from the productivity that I could have being in the workplace and doing the work because there’s so much thought. Intentional, unintentional, conscious or unconscious switching and changing and adapting. And something I really want to uplift in this conversation too is that people are doing that for safety.
(05:11): People are doing that to avoid hurtful, harmful, hateful comments. People are doing that in terms of safety because it increases their likelihood or their probability for promotion or recognition or views around merit in the workplace. And so it’s also very deeply psychologically consequential for when people can’t belong in the workplace, which I think is not something I’ve heard too much in conversations. I don’t know, have you heard it a lot?
Roni (05:39): No. Many people don’t speak about that. And the things that come along with having to diminish who you are in those spaces. And people always say like, “Oh, you can’t pour from empty cup. You have to fill yourself up.” But you’re talking about people going into workspaces where people are saying, “Leave your cup outside.” I can’t even fill myself up in this space because you say my cup doesn’t fit your pantry, essentially. Like, “Your dishes don’t belong here. Take your cup and stay outside.” And you come in with your hands and you’re trying to catch as much as you can, but it’s falling through the cracks. So how do you exist in that? Not only exist but thrive and grow?
Ashley (06:18): Ooh, my cup is not even welcome here. Leave your dishes outside. That’s good. Yeah, I think that’s going to resonate with a lot of people and it’s so visual. I’m so glad that you gave that example because people can sit with that. Like this is what folks are being asked to do. Thank you for giving such a great example for it to resonate with everybody. So we’ve started this conversation and have been thinking a lot about it as we’ve been developing this resource and this tool around workplace belonging, what that looks like, and particularly thinking about the experiences of employees of color. What is it like to be a Black employee? What does it look like to have intersectional identities? To be a multilingual Black person?
(07:13): What does it look like to be a trans person with immigrant and refugee experience? What are the different intersections of how people show up to work and what does it look like to create a culture of belonging and a culture of welcomeness that is thoughtful and inclusive of people’s authenticity? And so one of the sections of the product that we have been developing really looks at authenticity in the workplace. And I think that’s where our conversation has really centered so far, talking about what it looks like to be authentic. And in that conversation, a lot of times people maybe misconstrue authenticity in the workplace with like coming to work with your different quirks or your character traits or maybe you like to use explicit language.
(07:55): And really helping people understand that authenticity in the workplace, especially when it comes to your cultural identity, is very different than being mindful of organizational norms that might be aligned with or not aligned with different aspects of our personality. So as I break that down, helping people think about what are we talking about more specifically resonating with your cultural and your personal identities as it relates to the workplace. So we have been having this conversation a lot because we’ve been developing this resource and this resource is really helping organizations think about how to create space, how to make more authentic work environments for employees of color, for folks with intersecting identities and really looking at systemic and structural issues like racism in the workplace.
(08:49): And so far we’ve talked a lot about authenticity, people being able to show up with their full identities and be authentic in the workplace. There’s also some components of it that’s tied to identity and mental health. How do you see mental health playing a role in this?
Roni (09:06): Well, when you can’t show up as your full self in a place that you spend a lot of your time every day, what does that do to someone? Like, “I can’t be myself. I’m not free to think the way I think in the outside world, so I’m really oppressing myself in this space.” There’s no oppression that comes within because you have to squeeze to fit into this mold, and that really takes a toll on folks. Like you go home, you get in your car, you sit for 30 minutes just before you can even pull out of the parking lot because you’re unpacking all of the stress of the day, the microaggressions you may be dealing with. People making backhanded compliments like, “Oh, you speak so well.” All those things you carry with you through your day, you’re at work eight, nine, 10 hours a day, and then you have to go home, unpack all that and deal with what’s going on in the outside world too.
(09:57): So it really can take a toll on your mental. That’s why people get burnt out, why people are like, “You know what? I can’t take this anymore. I just need a day. I need a week. I need a month.” And you’re not able to work in the way that you normally would if you were able to be in a space that was supportive. So they’re not supporting your growth, your health, your wellbeing, and that takes a toll. You’re not able to do the job that you’re set out to do. You’re not as productive, as creative, and it impacts the bottom line of the organization because when you’re not able to live up to your full potential, the products that you create are not to their full potential and the work suffers.
Ashley (10:31): I particularly appreciate the emphasis in you recognizing that it’s multiple layers. Like it’s compounding, it’s in this workplace, it is the micro interpersonal experiences. It is the policies, procedures, legislations that’s happening. It’s all of it. And it’s not that people are experiencing it in one aspect or across one dimension, but the multiple layers layering on it. And I also really appreciate that you bring into the conversation burnout and helping people see that burnout is not a personal flaw. Like, “I didn’t take care of myself, so I’m experiencing burnout.” No, burnout is coming from an organizational and institutional or societal or systemic communal space as well where there are things that are lacking that aren’t present. And as a result of those gaps, people are burning out.
(11:25): And I really hope that folks heard you when you said that because that’s so good, particularly when you’re thinking about how to create an environment that is welcoming, that is inclusive, that does promote belongingness. You have to think about those intricacies. And another place that I think mental health comes in is around trauma response. A lot of times we’ll talk about fight, flight, freeze and fawn, and we’ll have really clear image about what that looks like. Someone running or someone fighting or someone halting and freezing. But the reality of it’s that those trauma responses, those automatic responses show up in the workplace as well, but sometimes that freezing might look like avoiding or the fleeing might look like procrastination.
(12:13): And really thinking about what are some of the ways that people are not being able to be their most productive selves, and could that be their body responding to the things that they’re dealing with or coping with in the workplace that are activating a trauma response in their body based on those multiple layers that you mentioned and that you talked about so beautifully. I think that plays a very big role. And you mentioned microaggressions. Microaggressions is something we really focus on in this product that we’re developing as well. What are some of the things that you’ve been able to identify as being helpful in addressing microaggressions and addressing institutional bias?
Roni (12:56): I think organizations, especially those in leadership, need to understand what microaggressions are, how they show up, because you are not able to assist in conflicts that folks may be having if you don’t even know where they’re coming from. What does that mean when someone says, “I felt this way.” The intent versus the impact. Like, “You said this and the intent might have been this, but let me tell you what the impact was for me.” No one can address that at a managerial level, on a real deep level if they don’t even understand what that means, how microaggressions show up, how they can affect people. They need to know the work. So being able to support organizations in learning that I think is important. I also think that folks need to encourage open communication and have those spaces where folks can have dialogue and create a space for people to learn and unlearn some things.
(13:51): It’s not just about learning. Some things you have to unlearn as well when it comes to microaggressions and the way people operate and speak to each other, carrying those implicit biases into work and conversations. So tackling all those things really comes down to education and communication.
Ashley (14:06): Mm-hmm. When we think about what are norms, sometimes those are so intricately woven into our identity practices that we don’t even recognize it. That’s just the way that… I always say when someone’s like, “Well, that’s just the way we’ve been doing it.” That’s the place we put that pause and say, “Why? What is the reason? Is that because this has just become a formative part of the organizational structure, or a norm that might have been rooted or based in a biased? What is our strategic response when microaggressions occur? Do we recognize that while microaggressions might in one instance look like someone making a mistake or saying something unintentionally, what is the bigger consequence?” If we truly understand the definition of microaggressions, we know that microaggressions aren’t to suggest this small or inconsequential thing. Microaggressions is actually talking about the frequency of it, the compoundedness of it, and the major impact that has on people’s wellness.
(15:06): So when a microaggression occurs, we need to have a response that’s going to have that level of impact as well. And so what are the organizational policies that we are developing to respond to those things? I think that really examining what are the potential biases that we aren’t considering? It’s hard to think about the things that you’re not thinking about, right? That’s a really hard time. Let’s think about all the things that we’re not thinking about, but this is where a collaborative process comes up. This is where we collect a lot of really great information from folks, and then we utilize it to do something different as opposed to collecting it and filing it away.
(15:52): This is where you start to get to those maybe innocuous or subtle things that you’re not realizing are impeding and hindering a culture of inclusivity from being formulated. At all stages and all levels of growth within an organization, is there a consorted effort to continue to examine people’s training and knowledge, learning and unlearning? Is it that you do it when you first enter the organization, or do you have to continue to have a growth process for learning and unlearning within your organization? These are things that would promote belongingness.
Roni (16:29): Yeah, no, what you just said was really key because I think sometimes people get on a wave like, “Oh, we need to support this. This is the now action.” And they do all of this work in this moment and there’s nothing to support it through the future. Like what is the impact of this? How do we measure it? How do we know that this has even been successful what we’ve done, and keep it going for the life of the organization? And always seeing what’s emerging in that field and really putting in… Like if you say you all in, like really being all in and carrying that work forward, I think that’s critical. I think that’s where a lot of organizations fall short. They just deal with it now and it’s trendy and hip and in vogue, but how do we carry this forward?
(17:12): Because my Blackness and being able to show up as myself is not a trend. I need to be able to do that today, and I need to be able to do that five years from now.
Ashley (17:19): Yes, it’s definitely not a trend, and I love it. You are literally defining culture change. People are like, “Oh, we’re going to do culture change. We’re going to add this program.” No, no, no. Culture change is whole system, whole person, shifts and changes that have longevity that are concretizable that continue to be sustainable. And so these are the conversations that maybe folks are avoiding or trying not to have because it’s hard to think about the future. And also, in order for that change to occur, we have to be thinking those multiple steps. We have to be thinking about every person who comes into this organization, do they know that this is the value?
Roni (18:06): Yeah. And it’s not just for show like, “We did it, y’all. We are really trying to achieve something.” So I love that you said that. That was right on.
Ashley (18:17): And I think it leads us to thinking about wellness in the workplace. For folks who are listening and who are like, “Okay, well, I want to promote wellness. I want to prioritize wellness.” What are some things that folks could do to, these are ways to address issues around belongingness, promoting wellness. If we envision that, what are just one or two ways that that could show up or look like?
Roni (18:48): Well, I think the first thing is to not make assumptions about what wellness means for people in your organization. Like, “Oh, we’re going to have wellness Wednesday. We’re going to have somebody come do yoga.” I don’t want to do yoga. That’s not what wellness means to me. So I think the first step is speaking to folks. You can’t just unilaterally decide what wellness looks like for other people. So you have to speak to folks, talk to the folks in your organization who are being most impacted by the current policies and structure of the organization, the current culture of the organization, and say, “What will it take for us to make you feel more comfortable here?” Maybe that’s an extended lunch sometimes, and maybe that’s an affinity group where I can talk to people like me and we can say what needs to be said the way that we say it, whatever that may look like.
(19:38): But I think the first step is understanding what people need because you’re trying to fill a need and you don’t even know what it is.
Ashley (19:44): Ooh, brilliance. Brilliance, brilliance, brilliance. Everybody take notes because that… [Laughter] Those are the conversations that I think folks would love to have. People know. People know what they would like. In instances where people don’t, if we don’t create the platform or the space to ask the question to get people to know that it’s okay to think about that, then it’s really definitely not happening. So it’s okay if people don’t know immediately, but we have to be intentional about creating space where people can say, “This would really feel good to be able to have this space at work, or to be able to practice wellness in this way.”
Roni (20:24): Yeah.
Ashley (20:24): These are some ways that organizations traditionally collect information. A lot of organizations will conduct surveys and send out surveys again and again and again. They get all the information and they do what with it? Are there also listening sessions for people who might be fatigued and tired of doing surveys again and again without any tangible result that they are able to observe from it? Are there listening sessions or focus groups? Is that information being disseminated back to folks after they contribute their time, energy, or effort to providing the organization that information? Do they even get to see their own product back to them? Those are some of the ways that organizations collect information that could be just as activating as not doing anything with it.
Roni (21:10): Yeah.
Ashley (21:11): Well, we had this wonderful opportunity to work with the New England MHTTC, and we’re working with them to develop this workbook, this resource, and possibly some additional resources as well. To help people, implement the workbook. To think about what wellness looks like, what wellbeing and what belongingness looks like in the workforce? And certainly it’s a point in the journey. This is an ongoing, critical conversation that’s going to continue to evolve, that’s going to continue to take into account cultural, systemic, and structural topics. But regardless of where folks are in their organization and having this conversation, the main part about it is to start.
(21:56): And so hopefully we can produce materials or resources that’ll help people in starting that conversation, recognizing that it takes more than a single resource of any kind to make the type of change and create the type of environment we’re talking about today. With that, we could continue to talk about this all day long. We’ve had many all day conversations about it, but I’m just so grateful for all of the gems that you dropped, for all of the insight that you provided and for bringing your true self to this space. So Roni, thank you so much for being on the podcast today.
Roni (22:33): Thank you so much for having me. Has been my absolute pleasure.
Ashley (22:36): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (22:40): Visit c4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode is sponsored by New England Mental Health Technology Transfer Center and was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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