An episode of “Changing the Conversation” podcast
Dwayne Watkins discusses strengths and challenges of growing up in a rural North Carolina community with host Ashley Stewart.
February 12, 2024
[Music]
Ashley Stewart, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dr. Ashley Stewart and I am the director for the Center of Health Equity at C4 Innovations. Today, we will be talking about multi-variate identities in rural communities. And our guest today is the one and only Dwayne Watkins.
Dwayne Watkins, Guest (00:22): Thank you, Dr. Ashley, for having me. I am super excited to be here today and to be in conversation and community with you.
Ashley (00:29): We’re super excited to have you. And Dwayne is joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. And Dwayne is the manager extraordinaire at the Center for Health Equity at C4 Innovations. So Dwayne, we are talking about multi-variate diversity in rural communities, and this is something that you know just a little bit about. Tell us, how does this topic connect to you and a little bit about what brings you onto the podcast today.
Dwayne (00:54): For starters, I grew up in a small rural town called Lumber Bridge, North Carolina. According to the last census, we have roughly about 100 people or so living there, about 10 or so churches, one elementary school, no grocery stores, and just one traffic light. So growing up in such a rural community, my experiences and identity were shaped by that close-knit nature of my environment. Living in a tight-knit community meant that everyone knew each other, which could be a good thing or a bad thing. But since I’m a glass-half-full type person, it really created a strong sense of belonging. So I just remember spending my childhood just exploring the fast open spaces, enjoying nature. And participated in community events that was held by either one of my family members or one of those 10 churches that I mentioned earlier. But just as far as my identities, my cultural background, and my family values played a significant role in just shaping my perspective. And those traditions and customs unique to our community added to that richness to my upbringing.
(01:56): However, it’s just essential to acknowledge that rural communities are diverse and individuals within them. We can have varied identities like myself, I am a Black queer man again that grew up on a dirt road. So whether if it’s cultural or socioeconomic or otherwise, all of these identities can come out of rural areas.
Ashley (02:19): There’s so many dimensions that we could even begin to unpack there. You described what I think you said 10 churches and no grocery stores, right? But there’s this rich agricultural aspect that people assume about rural communities. So what was that dynamic like?
Dwayne (02:34): And so in this case, that is a safe assumption. I did grow up and we had a garden, so it was the farm to table before I knew what a farm to table was. Although as any kid, I preferred McDonald’s instead, but yard chicken was a thing. We had livestock such as chickens, we had pigs. We had all of the things that would supplement the lack of when it comes to those resources and amenities of having grocery stores and other stores right there at your fingertips.
Ashley (03:04): How long did you live in this beautiful rural community?
Dwayne (03:08): Primarily, I grew up there the whole entire time until I went off into college. So even when we moved away and I’m using air quotes for the folks who can’t see me. We moved away because I’m a product of a teenage mother. When she finally went off to school and came back and I was living with my grandmother in a multi-generational household. And so we moved to Charlotte, North Carolina for just a few years. But I would always spend my summers, family vacations and any other school outings back in Lumber Bridge, North Carolina. So from the time I came out to the time I packed my bags and I actually graduated from a school in Hoke County, which is the adjacent neighboring school. Because like I said, we only had one elementary school. So for middle and high school, we had to go over to the neighboring city to complete those things. But yeah, so it’s running all in through me.
Ashley (04:05): I love it. And I love that you use air quotes because now you’re living in Atlanta, Georgia, you have lots of experience living in big cities. It’s still home and it’s still very much a part of you and your identity and your experiences. So what’s that like having that in-between space of having home be Lumber Bridge, North Carolina and home also being big city, Atlanta, Georgia.
Dwayne (04:28): I think that at the time in which I moved to Atlanta, it was such a natural transition for me. I just finished college. I finished at the height of the recession. So most at that time didn’t really know what they were going to be doing. So Atlanta was always like a place that felt like home. It was a big metropolitan city, but yet and still there was a strong sense of community, especially for the Black queer space. So moving into Atlanta, it really did just feel like a natural progression. The difference is really and being just the amount of amenities, the amount of people, and overall cost. Moving to Atlanta 13 years ago did not feel as scary as I think it would have been coming out of Lumber Bridge today moving to Atlanta in its current state.
Ashley (05:16): That’s awesome. I’m wondering, how did coming from a rural area show up as an enriching experience for you? I think there’s so much stigma sometimes associated with rural communities and not necessarily sure where that comes from. But I think this is a beautiful opportunity for us to talk about how unwrenching rural areas are and the things that you learned.
Dwayne (05:39): You’re not sure where none of the stigma comes from. I mean, the Beverly Hillbillies ran for how many seasons, so we have to fight that stigma in itself. Again, rural areas, we are not monolithic. There are folks that are there from different socioeconomic statuses. Racial diversity is there, as well as cultural diversity. It shows up differently than a more metropolitan city because it’s more hidden and not necessarily in your face. But still, growing up in a rural area, I would say that it was a liberating experience, and it was a little bit of a Catch-22. Because it was enriching in the fact in which I had to dream and imagine and to be innovative because all I had was what I had. And again, growing up on a dirt road, so there wasn’t a lot of access to other amenities and just activities outside of what was being offered at the local church.
(06:31): We didn’t have a YMCA or any of these other things in which we could go to and see what was beyond what we saw on the day to day. So for me, that escape was books. I love to read. So I was able to fit in culturally and with everything else that my family had going on. But also, I was different in that regard in which I loved books and I looked at books as a way to see the world in which I was not seeing. Because again, only shows that really talked about rural communities are growing up were very deeply rooted in stigma, stereotypes, and all those different things. So I say that if you haven’t been to a small town, you definitely should go because you’ll be surprised at just how many gems are there, how many creative people are there. Just the innovation of it all. And folks that really have seen the world, but they just choose to be back here in a safe space in which they call their community.
Ashley (07:31): I love that. I love that. And I’m hoping you can speak to the deep community reliancy that I feel like is coming up as we talk about this topic. So you’re mentioning there’s no YMCAs. There might not be an abundance of different organizations that people could go to to get services, recovery support services, housing services. There might not be a lot of places where young people could go to engage in extracurricular activities. So I’d imagine that a lot of that then becomes reliant on the relationships that people have with each other and within the community. Can you speak a little bit about that?
Dwayne (08:10): Absolutely. Relationship is the most vital part of growing up in a rural community. I mean, like I said, everyone knew everyone, so that was either a good thing or a bad thing. If you were a kid that was acting up in school, it was definitely a bad thing. But if you needed a resource or the local county was offering something, you would be surprised at just how fast that word travels. So community organizing in a way, whether if it was through the local churches, folks were really out there doing that work. Whether if it was getting people registered to vote or just getting the elderlies baskets for food during the holidays. There was really a true sense of community and service in that regard that I don’t even think that the folks that live in these rural areas realize that what they’re doing actually has a name for it. And you can actually make some good money for it if you were in another area in the States.
Ashley (09:05): That’s it, right? That’s the dynamic part of rural community. That is a dynamic part of rural communities that we often don’t get a chance to talk about. For you and yourself specifically, did you experience anything in terms of limitations or resources that you wish you had access to? Or that you can now observe as maybe a gap now that you’ve had the opportunity to live in so many different places and see what kind of resources are available across different geographical locations?
Dwayne (09:34): Absolutely. For starters, living in a food desert. Again, we all had our local gardens and things of that nature, but that was more so to supplement. So I remember going to the grocery store once a month, and that would mean you had to be diligent in your grocery list. And you’re literally shopping for, again, I’m living in a mostly generational home, so we’re shopping for the entire month for five or six dietary restrictions. So that was one thing in itself. In regards to just the activities, different special interest clubs, I didn’t really see a lot of expressive or creative folks in my community. I have always been very particular about my clothing and had this love in this niche for fashion. And granted what I saw back then I didn’t realize was some of the best fashion shows on a Sunday morning or Easter when my grandmother and my aunts would wear their big hats and their full regalia. And getting ready in that regard.
(10:37): But still just having a space in which folks who are a little different. And again, we’re using these air quotes because again, as I said, I’m a Black queer man and I grew up in a bible thumping part of North Carolina. So that in itself has some issues with my own self-acceptance and love with my identity. But just having some more representation from that regard and knowing that I wasn’t the only one. Now, that I’m older and I’m looking back and I have other cousins who are queer and it’s like we were all struggling in the same way. Just not seeing ourselves and not being able to articulate how we feel or any of those things in which I today can stand and be confident in. Really just those resources and again, just seeing more folks that look like me, that may have spoken like me, all those different things.
(11:35): And then outside of the food desert, I would really say just in regards to healthcare and the health disparities. Because we didn’t necessarily have any doctors in our community. We had some PAs, which were amazing. But if you got a diagnosis, you just went with it, you didn’t second guess it. So some of those nuances when it comes to just understanding the options and choices. So I mean, I would wrap most of this up and just having the option of choice. There were a lot of times that we just didn’t have that in rural communities. And I really would think that that is not only unfair, but it’s vital to the survival of those folks in those communities.
Ashley (12:20): I love it. I have to take a moment, and just to pause to acknowledge. Now, you were being humble about your fashion sense. I recognize that the listeners can’t see you. And I just have to say it on the record, that Dwayne is a leader in trending fashion. [Laughter] Okay. So being able to express your creativity, your innovation, your fashion, your sense of style. I mean, yes, you dress very stylish. You are absolutely creative and aesthetically that is something that is very apparent as soon as someone meets you, as well as your charm and charismatic nature. There’s also this component of it that you do speak a lot about this and you do create spaces for people to lean into their creativity and their true authentic selves.
(13:16): So thinking about folks who are already or currently located in rural areas who might be thinking about some elements or aspects of their identity that maybe they don’t get to see all the time in their communities. Speaking from your experience as a Black queer man, what kind of advice would you give another young person who shares similar identities to you that’s trying to find support in a rural community?
Dwayne (13:40): Well, first, Dr. Ashley, I would say you’re far too kind. And again, if the listeners could see me, I am smiling from ear to ear with those compliments. But for anyone that is growing up in a rural community that are experiencing things with identity issues, I would say the best advice that I could give, which was given to me by Bevy Smith, is that it gets better later. And it’s very cliche, but it definitely gets better later and that you will begin to not only accept the things in which make you unique and that make you you. And that you can really lean into in regards to whether it’s showing up and being yourself in your professional setting, in a setting amongst your friends and family. But yeah, just being your authentic self will get you much further than you dimming your light and only being a shell of yourself.
(14:34): So just know that there is a world outside of the dirt roads that you may or may not be growing up on. But also, just know that even if you are in a family that is very stuck in one way of thinking, just because of their surroundings. And maybe they don’t know, maybe they haven’t experienced certain parts of the world. But yeah, with the level of access of the internet, YouTube University, all these different things that are at your fingertips, like lean in on those. Because you’ll be surprised that you are very unique, but you’re not special. And meaning that there are other people out there that share that sense of identity and community with you that you can fit into. And again, you can provide your unique perspective and your unique experience, but there are other folks who are just like you. So you’re not alone in that.
Ashley (15:26): That’s absolutely beautiful. I so hope that someone is able to listen to this, that can connect with that and can really feel that sense of like, “I am unique, but I’m not an anomaly in that there are in fact other people who I could connect to.” So maybe we thinking about people, maybe some providers or practitioners who want to be able to support, who say, “Wow, I know that this is something that could be quite isolating for people in rural communities.” Especially leaning into the multivariate diversities of experiences that might be more isolated in rural communities. What practical tips might you have for those folks who are currently in rural communities and want to create more inclusive and accessible spaces for people to show up as their authentic self?
Dwayne (16:13): Yes. The first thing is that you just have to take the first step and to start. So whatever it is in which you feel is a missing link and that you would like to begin to community organizing, there’s going to be someone there that will benefit from that. So even if it isn’t someone that is in your direct rural community, because a lot of these communities are isolated geographically by theirselves. So it could be the next person from the next neighbor in town over that is living in a similar geographic space as you. Similar cultural experiences that would benefit from some community organizing from just getting the word out there that, “Hey, we have this new health store that we’re trying to provide,” or “Hey, we have this new agricultural program that we’re trying to implement here in the county.” But just getting the word out there. Don’t get discouraged because there may be fewer numbers. But again, it doesn’t take a whole lot of people to make change happen. You just have to have the right people.
Ashley (17:18): Let’s get the people going. There is so many. I love those really practical solutions, and I hope that people see themselves like this is all of our lane. And speaking of it being all of our lane, I’m also thinking about people who might be in communities. Maybe some urban settings that are in proximity to rural communities that are like, “Well, I have these resources,” or “I have this group that’s attempting outreach and wants to connect with young people or older adults or families and communities in rural areas.” What might be some practical suggestions for those providers in those more urban settings who want to reach out to folk and want to connect to rural communities?
Dwayne (18:01): Absolutely. So please come to these communities, share the wealth, share the knowledge. But also, you have to understand that these communities, they can see through fakeness. So please be genuine and also be in it for the long haul. Word travels fast. So if you come in and you don’t do what you say you are going to do, that word will travel fast and folks will not be receptive to anything. Whether it be good that you may be trying to provide to the community. So just come in authentic, do what you say you’re going to do. And you’ll be surprised that just the level of impact and reach that you will have in these type of communities.
Ashley (18:46): That’s so good. That’s so, so good. And have an appreciation for you entering into a new culture. I think sometimes even whether we’re going into urban settings or we’re going into rural settings, or if we’re going into schools or wherever we’re going. Sometimes there could be the saviorism complex that I’m bringing these new innovative ideas to this place that needs my help but recognizing that everything is a reciprocal relationship. And that there’s so much to learn on all sides and having that really motivate that authentic encounter is also something that I hope that people are considering that what you just said sparked for me. That’s so important.
Dwayne (19:27): Yes, absolutely. I cannot stress that enough because this is a very reciprocal relationship. You’re not coming to save anyone. Folks who live there, live there by choice. So when folks live in other places. So yeah, just come in authentic, know that there’s going to be some reciprocity. You’re going to learn from the folks that are there. And in return, they’re going to learn from you as well. So as long as you come with that humble spirit, that spirit that is eager to learn and to share, it’ll be a beautiful, beautiful thing that could happen.
Ashley (20:02): This has been an amazing conversation. Dwayne, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast sharing your story, honoring your family, honoring your community. And also, giving such practical advice about how to have these authentic encounters.
Dwayne (20:17): Yes, thank you for having me. This was great. So hopefully you’ll have me again and we can talk about some other things.
Ashley (20:23): Oh, for sure. For sure. And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (20:30): Visit C4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
[Music]
Access additional “Changing the Conversation” podcast episodes.
