An episode of “Changing the Conversation” podcast
Dwayne Watkins and host Ashley Stewart share self-care perspectives and strategies for when your identity overlaps with your work and passions.
March 25, 2024
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Ashley Stewart, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dr. Ashley Stewart, the director of the Center on Equity at C4 Innovations. And today I am joined by Dwayne Watkins, who is the manager of the Center on Equity at C4, joining us from Atlanta, Georgia. Dwayne, how you feeling today?
Dwayne Watkins, Guest (00:24): Greetings, Dr. Ashley, I’m feeling well. The sun is out, the birds are chirping and the pollen count is high. So I am grateful for this opportunity to be here in community with you again today.
Ashley (00:36): [Laughter] Is that your disclaimer for any sniffles we might hear throughout the episode today?
Dwayne (00:41): Any potential sniffles, that is absolutely my disclaimer.
Ashley (00:45): [Laughter] Well, thank you so much for joining us. We’re super excited to have a great conversation today on balancing passion and self-care while we explore strategies for maintaining a passionate commitment to social justice issues at work while prioritizing self-care to prevent burnout. And Dwayne, this topic is one that’s near and dear to you and I, where our work literally centers on equity and having difficult conversations promoting wonderful, tremendous transformative change, and also balancing our experiences and our identities as folks who are systemically marginalized, minoritized, or excluded through race, gender, sexual orientation, and other aspects of our cultures too.
Dwayne (01:36): So it sounds like a very meaty conversation, and a very needed conversation as we are embarking upon another election year that could potentially be stressful for others.
Ashley (01:46): Absolutely. Inevitably. Right? No matter how the conversation unfolds, it’s going to add some nuance, some intricacies to how we have the conversation. So one of the things we want to think about or begin the conversation considering is self-care. And so, I start us off by talking about what self-care means to us. What does it mean to you, Dwayne?
Dwayne (02:06): Self-care, which seems as if it’s a new term that has been thrown around the last couple of years, and I would say especially at the peak and the height of the 2020 contentious era, especially for Black and Brown folks. But it’s just the practice of intentionally taking those actions to preserve and enhance one’s, whether it’s physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual well-being. To me, it involves recognizing and meeting your own needs, prioritizing your health, prioritizing your happiness, and taking responsibility for your own kind of self-care. Those self-care activities can vary widely and it just depends on the person, but for me, I know it is intentionally setting those boundaries, having those moments of self-reflection and awareness, and also gym. I’m one of those people that have utilized the gym as a tool to not only make me look better physically, but inside and mentally it also helps me with my self-care. So going to the gym and taking those moments to reflect in that regard is definitely part of my self-care routine.
Ashley (03:19): I love that for you, Dwayne. And if it is at all possible to make one person’s self-care, another person’s self-care, please pass the gym-as-a-self-care sensation over to me. I would love for that to be experienced that way in my body. [Laughter] I love that you bring this up because I think some people have started talking about self-care really recently and experiencing this as a new concept for them. Whereas someone like me in my field, I’ve been talking about self-care for as long as I can remember, and self-care being something that’s really deeply rooted in cultural history and context for myself. When I was in school and we were learning about self-care, it was a list of tasks, a list of things that you could do, practices that you can incorporate in your life, suggestions, if you will, that were self-care.
(04:11): And often I would sit back and I’d say, “These things are really good. These things are really a part of human hygiene that I think is essential. But it doesn’t always feel like self-care to me.” Which got me exploring and looking at other perspectives, non-Western perspectives, non-academic perspectives of what self-care is. And I think some of the elements of what you share really come to light, and that there isn’t one way, there isn’t a particular set of standards for what makes a self-care. It really is about understanding what feels most supportive, what helps you feel best prepared to do and be sustained in the work. Now, one of the things I love to say is self-care is selfless. Because if you are able to self-care and do it in a way that really resonates with you and your body, it enables you to continue to show up again and again and again to do the work in the field that you’re passionate about, or to be there for your family, or be there for your kids, or be there for the folks who are important in your life, be there for yourself.
(05:22): In this context, we’re talking about how self-care helps us show up to do this work again and again. And so it almost feels like a necessity to the work. I remember one person telling me once that their self-care was picking up heavy stuff and putting it down, and I couldn’t relate to it at all, but I really appreciated deeply that that was their self-care. And then I started to think about it. I was like, “Well, I’m wearing really bright, vibrant colors.” When I lived in New York, I used to wear my hair in this humongous afro, and I used to wear stripes and polka dots and it was just, but it felt really good.
(05:54): And so, as I began to explore and study different types of self-care, ideals like radical self-care started to emerge and talking about how self-care was always a part of resistance for oppressed people, and particularly something that has been uplifted in Black communities in the fight towards social justice. So there was an inherent link between self-care and social justice. And for our listeners, we’re going to link an amazing article to this podcast that talks about that process, the how being ready about how standing up and advocating to mitigating potential stressors is also a form of self-care. And I think that’s a really important foundation for the conversation we’re going to have today, which is how do you balance personal wellness when your identity overlaps with your work? So what has that looked like for you?
Dwayne (06:50): For me in particular, it was something that it was a little bit of a slow burn. I am still grappling with that balancing act. I had to realize that in the grand scheme of things, that this is a marathon. It is not a sprint. I had to realize that my overall intake in the media, it’s okay to not be in the know at the very moment something happens, especially if it’s something that is going to impact me in a way in which I’m going to be emotionally charged and want to respond to. As you say, we do this work, we live this work, we eat and breathe this work. So it’s inherently a part of us. So of course, we want to automatically go into our fix-it mode of things, but we have to make sure that we have enough in our cup to pour into others as well.
(07:42): So again, just some real practical strategies in which I had began practicing just the art of mindfulness. And mindfulness looks different for different people, but for me it is taking a step back. It’s actually taking some deep breaths before I respond to something that may have emotionally charged me in the moment, especially if it’s in the workplace. It is me intentionally listening to understand versus listening to have a response to others. And again, just extending that grace not only to myself, but the others that are in community and conversation with me on a topic that could be potentially contentious.
(08:23): And also, again, like I said, with taking off the notifications, but just limiting my media intake, I had to take the CNNs off my phone. I had to take the Fox News off my phone, the MSNBCs, simply because getting that alert and having someone else tell me how I should feel about something versus me just reading something and seeing it firsthand and having my natural response to it, I realized that that was detrimental to my self-care and in return, I wasn’t being able to be my full self and do the work that we do here on a daily.
Ashley (09:03): I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Those boundaries are so important. And one of the things that I always tell people when it comes to boundaries is you won’t catch me on time when I’m not at work or practicing my skill for work watching shows or documentaries. It could be the most popular documentary, but if it’s about a particular social issue, I’m not watching it leisurely. And so yes, I miss out on some really good shows often that I can’t turn off that analytical part of my brain, that’s me personally. So I make a really intentional choice to watch things that are funny and lighthearted or that don’t occupy too much of that brain space. That’s one of the simple ways that that boundary shows up.
(09:48): I think, for me, when I think about balancing personal wellness, when identity overlaps with work is, one, making a really critical conscious choice and then honoring that choice. So I often think about it like this. When I experience some things, I experience them as a person. Taking an anti-essentialist view. I am not one aspect of my identities. I am the culmination of my identities. And so it is inevitable that in this work there are going to be things that we talk about that would be activating to my experiences. And that critical choice that I had to make is when I’m responding, am I choosing to engage the part of me that is fervently and unapologetically committed to moving forward change and allowing my skills and strategy to leave that conversation? Or am I going to choose to respond as a person with my own personal experiences that likely would not tolerate half of the conversations that I choose to engage in as a professional that I look forward to engaging in a professional. So that was a conscious choice that I had to make.
(10:57): And I think it’s really important too because a lot of people are put into positions to respond to things on parts of their identity that they did not ask to do, that they’re not choosing to do as part of their work. And that in itself is a form of oppression. I’m a Black woman who chooses to do work around anti-racism, and as a result, there is strategy and technique that comes with facilitating those conversations. I had to really honor that choice, because in doing so it gives me permission to assess when I’m not in a situation where I am doing it for work, I can be able to respond as myself and not necessarily care if it moves a conversation forward, but really just respond as myself. But when I am in a work environment, I’m thinking about, “Wow, this is a moment where that was an activator. How can I leverage that to change, to transform, to make a shift?”
(11:52): The second thing that I had to do was begin to honor the strategy that would lead me to feel I had the most impact, but to also be the most sustainable. So right now, my work towards equity is really much in providing technical assistance and teaching, being a professor in direct service provision. But there were other iterations of my experience doing this work where I occupy spaces, an organizer where I activated spaces like someone who worked in major institutions, serving people where I was wearing an activist hat and thinking about how to promote change in all of the different ways that we lean into this work are essential. Some of them are more sustainable for ourselves, giving our natural strengths and skills than others, and sometimes we have this ideal about what is impact.
(12:42): We have to challenge that to say, “How can I make impact in a way that’s going to be sustainable for me?” I love to learn. I am incredibly patient. I love to facilitate difficult dialogues. That’s going to be a much more sustainable way for me to have a long and big term impact than the times when I was in a more activist role where it felt very depletionary for me after a single day of organizing. And that’s why we need everyone at the table. Someone who’s like, I don’t have the patience to talk people through their oppressive feelings. I’d rather go say what needs to be said in a particular place and leave it there. We all bring invaluable skills to this work and that self-assessment is important. And I think that that was a really critical key for me about prioritizing my wellness, doing this work as a Black woman.
Dwayne (13:38): I am in complete agreement with you Dr. Ashley, especially with the prioritizing kind of that inner healing so that you do recognize and understand what activates you, the radical self-care, focusing on just the inner healing and emotional wellbeing as essential components of just overall wellness. It involves practices such as therapy or mindfulness or journaling and the self-compassion to just process those emotions to heal that trauma, and then to cultivate resilience so that you are able to go out and to continue to impact change on these communities in which we have been disenfranchised for such a long time. And as you say, that we are a part of as well with our multiple varying identities.
Ashley (14:26): Self-care for me looked like learning how to respond. Self-care to me looked like learning how to take something that is heated and hot and that would typically just totally detract and break it down to be able to analyze it and respond. Being prepared for the moments when opportunities presented themselves to move conversations forward. That felt like self-care to me, and that still feels like self-care to me and in ways that some other Googleable, is that a word I just made that up? Some other Googleable forms of self-care just would not have done it for me. Yes, practicing that mindfulness, allowing myself to be really present in the moment, that’s a different type of self-care.
Dwayne (15:26): Oh, absolutely. And I know we spoke about it briefly, but just setting those boundaries, which is something that is hard and difficult that I’ve found for people of color to do, especially in the workplace. But just establishing those boundaries, not only between your activism and your personal life to prevent burnout, but you just have to designate specific times for your activism and allow yourself to rest and recharge outside of the advocacy work. I’m learning to say no to additional commitments or requests that may overwhelm you because again, we’re occupying space in which our identities overlap with some of the issues in which we are facing trying to solve at work. And sometimes you’re asked upon this because of your expertise and because of your identity with the community in which you’re trying to serve. And you want to say, “Yes, yes, yes.” But also you have to be realistic and honest and truthful with yourself and say no sometimes.
(16:26): Again, putting your own well-being to the forefront. And then just having that community support, building a supportive network of fellow activists or friends or colleagues or mentors who understand the challenges you face that can be there and provide emotional support, that can provide encouragement for you, that will participate in support groups or affinity spaces where you can share your experiences, where you can seek advice and receive validation. But I think that between those things, and also scheduling that rest and reset, whatever that looks like for you, to your point, I don’t necessarily want to watch a documentary because I just want to see something funny. I just want to see the world in a light space.
(17:14): So that reset, that’s what that involves for me. Even if it’s a 30-minute walk around the block where you can just clear your mind again, hear the birds chirping, take in some of this high pollen count, just make sure you have your Zyrtecs ready. [Laughter] But absolutely, just finding those moments to yourself in which you can really just rest, take a minute, breathe, and then get back to your full complete self, because again, this is a marathon, not a sprint. So there’s plenty of work that will be left here to be done.
Ashley (17:46): Yeah. One of the things we’ve kind of naturally started to talk about that I also thought would be helpful for our listeners is what kind of specific strategies are necessary to be sustained in this work? And so I hear a lot coming up around boundaries. I hear a lot coming up about authentic self-care, radical self-care. I’m also hearing a lot coming up about having support around you, taking time to reset. So these are themes, understanding what impact looks like. These are themes that are showing up as different strategies. Another strategy that comes to mind is leaning into something you just mentioned about having a team or having a community to do the work and recognizing the responsibility isn’t on one of us. And one of the things that I think becomes really apparent about the need for a team is when we start to look at what I like to call the spectrum of resistance.
(18:47): You will have times when you are in the work and it’s too personal. We have not had a chance to process it yet. It is something that is very vicarious to us, or perhaps it is a secondary experience and we’re really feeling it. Maybe we’re just exhausted or maybe there’s other dynamics that are happening. We have a lot on our plate at work in other capacities, and inevitably we might feel like we don’t feel like doing it that day. And then there’s going to be days when we have time to have been recharged where we learn something new and we’re excited to impart that information in the communities and with the wonderful folks who we have the chance to serve.
(19:38): And we have all the time and the energy to do that. And there’s a spectrum, and a lot of times we think that the resistance to making changes coming particularly from these outside sources, but not being well enough to lean into the work or just needing that break from the work is just as important to honor as a potential barrier. Because when we try to push through in a space where something is really close or connected to us, it can cause discouragement, it can impact the energy that’s generated towards change. And so that’s why you need a team, because someone else is going to be on that other end of the spectrum, like, “That’s all right, I got the time today. I’ve got the energy today. I’ve got the ideas for today. I’m going to create that space for you as my colleague, as my teammate, as my community member to recharge.”
(20:31): Because that’s important to self-care because it’s important, and it’s the ebb and flow of that that creates a community that’s constantly generating innovation toward change, recognizing multiple people’s strengths, not relying on one strong, charismatic leader, right? That’s going to be a pitfall inevitably when it comes to self-care and wellness and being able to balance passion with self-care.
(21:03): So those are really good strategies. I wonder what’s a key takeaway that you would provide to someone who is trying to support folks who are doing social justice work on their team? So maybe like a supervisor who’s trying to encourage or empower critical self-care and commitment to social justice simultaneously on their team?
Dwayne (21:28): One key practical takeaway is to extend grace and to extend patience to know that it is okay to not be okay. It is okay to take a break. It is okay to step away, to refill yourself, to gather your thoughts to come back to this work. Also, remember that self-care is not selfish, but it is necessary for sustaining your activism and your resilience in this fight for justice. So yes, as a supervisor or someone who is leading a team, be okay with extending that grace and know that tolerance goes both ways. The same grace that you want to be extended to you when you’re not having your best day or your best showing, extend that to others as they navigate through this space, because we know that this work is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. One last plug is that, again, this is a marathon, not a sprint, and we need for everyone to just know and to stay in the race and to run this race at their own pace.
Ashley (22:33): I’m pretty sure when you do a marathon, you could take breaks too, huh?
Dwayne (22:36): Absolutely. Absolutely.
Ashley (22:39): [Laughter] Cause I’m out walking the marathon! [Laughter] I’m just kidding. I love that leading with Inquisition. And just to add on to what you said, “We don’t know the intersections of people’s identities.” We want to lead with Inquisition because we don’t know what aspect of the work is connected to us deeply, and in some instances, people are able to share, but in some instances people don’t. And so we want to lead with inquisition that grace in that space. I think one of the things that I’d leave for leaders or people who are trying to support teams who are engaging in critical equity conversations, critical social justice conversations and balancing wellness, is to appreciate different strengths in this work. We tend to really uplift one particular way of responding. We tend to see only one particular way of responding.
(23:36): There are a lot of people who might not say anything in the moment, but might follow up later if they’re given the space and empowerment to. There might be some who are trying to do that, but it’s not being received because it’s coming later after the fact. You might have some folks who are really talented in writing out these commitments. You might have someone who’s really skilled at presenting on it. You might have someone who’s really good at stopping the meeting in the moment to draw things to people’s attention and appreciating that diversity of response, nurturing those different strengths and seeing them as all key critical components to a functioning unit toward the goal of reducing harm and creating inclusion and shifting and changing the dynamics and culture of our workspaces. That balancing passion with self-care, it is beautiful. It is diverse, and it is something that should be celebrated and conversations that should be encouraged in every workspace. Dwayne, I’ve enjoyed this conversation so much. Thank you for joining us today.
Dwayne (24:44): Thank you for having me. I’ve enjoyed this conversation as well. So many things to think about.
Ashley (24:49): And to our listeners, please join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (24:54): Visit c4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on changing the conversation.
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