Motivational Interviewing 27: Gilan Merwanji

Ali Hall, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host today, Ali Hall, joining you from San Francisco, California. Our topic today is motivational interviewing and public defense holistic wellness. And my guest today is Gilan Merwanji, Holistic Defense Director, Social Work Supervisor in Harris County, Texas, Office of Managed Assigned Counsel. Hi, Gilan.

Gilan Merwanji, Guest (00:31): Hi, Ali. So good to see you.

Ali (00:33): Thanks for joining today, Gilan. And first off, what is a Managed Assigned Counsel?

Gilan (00:39): Our country has different offices and different styles of structures in providing indigent defense representation for clients who cannot afford private attorneys. You may have heard of the traditional public defender office. Just in that same realm, we also have something called the Managed Assigned Counsel. This is where we work with private attorneys who are contractors and in our county we are county office and our contractors are all the defense attorneys who are providing representations to clients who have been found indigent by the court. And that is what Managed Assigned Counsel is.

(01:14): Within the Managed Assigned Counsel office, we have the Holistic Defense team. As you mentioned, I’m the Director of Holistic Defense and Social Work Supervisor. So here at the Managed Assigned Counsel in Harris County, we have a team of social workers. We have an immigration attorney who provides immigration advisors as part of the Holistic Defense team. We have a chief of investigations who works with also private contracted investigators who are providing investigation services to our attorneys and clients. And we also have a Community Engagement Specialist and that’s part of the Holistic Defense team within Managed Assigned Counsel. Of course, we also have a separate legal operations team in-house.

Ali (01:54): Great. Thanks for that. And Holistic Defense sounds absolutely wonderful. How would it work for an individual who comes into the system? What would their experience be like with Holistic Defense, maybe even in contrast to a place that doesn’t have that?

Gilan (02:11): We are very fortunate to have the team we have and the services we can provide. So how it works is that let’s say a client is charged with whatever charges that they have or a case they have, the attorney will meet with them first and in their meeting they will realize that the client may have questions regarding the immigration status.

(02:28): And so the attorney may need to have immigration advisors to know how the charge will impact the client’s immigration status, or let’s say their attorney needs help with investigation to be done on the case in regards to the discovery they received. Or in interviewing the client, the attorney recognizes that the client needs help with housing, substance use, mental health or mitigation to the case. And so then they would go on our website, the attorneys will have a referral that they will fill out and each of the team leads would get their respective referrals. They will review it and then get a hold of the attorney and the client to take it from there.

Ali (03:04): Great. And you mentioned mitigation. What does that look like or sound like in the experience of the client?

Gilan (03:10): So to clarify, our office is only currently working in misdemeanor courts. So just to give context, in misdemeanor courts, mitigation may look very different than capital cases and in high level felony cases. But here we are in mitigation, we are writing sentencing reports, we are writing plea negotiation reports where social workers and attorneys work together. And of course the client who is the center of it all, work together in informing the court about the client’s situation and their whole life. And it gives a humanistic approach rather than just looking at the charge and the legal’s case and anything in regards to the legality of the case. It gives a fuller picture to the court, the prosecution, and that is what mitigation is.

Ali (03:55): All right. So the client not just as a charge or a collection of charges, but the client as a whole person.

Gilan (04:02): That is correct. A holistic view is taken. So their family life, the school education, employment, et cetera. Or the whole thing, the whole yard.

Ali (04:11): And then you mentioned connection to services. What would some of those resources be like for a person in your system?

Gilan (04:19): So we have people who may need help with accessing housing, accessing ID, accessing employment, GED, substance use treatment, mental health treatment, medications, family reunification, access help with mental health experts, psychologists, psychiatrists, if we need to do competency evaluations or we need further mental health evaluations. And also linking them to other civil attorneys because sometimes one case may impact other aspects of their life.

Ali (04:46): And I’m imagining that those connection to services, that is something that really helps a person from a whole person perspective, also helps them be more successful in navigating and getting their legal challenges behind them.

Gilan (05:02): Exactly. So I always say it’s twofold, right? The legal and the life. And so the life outcome and the legal case outcome, we are looking at both of those situations. And I can’t tell you how immensely helpful MI has been in from the get-go when it comes to interviewing clients, addressing the need for change so that they want to, by their own will, want to make the change and seek treatment and services. And also in mitigation how it has been helpful in building relationships and a partnership with our clients. So we don’t feel like we are the experts coming in telling them what to do, more that they would want to do it themselves because they want the change and they want to see the benefits of it.

Ali (05:43): That’s beautiful. Thanks for mentioning MI. And just curious, how does that work on a daily basis? And I’m guessing it’s also a bit of a change maybe from how folks might’ve done things or might do things in other jurisdictions.

Gilan (05:57): True. For me, it’s been really, really helpful because one MI is so amenable and flexible in how you can use it when you can use it and you can use it with different modalities and interventions. So that has been one thing, very helpful. Number two, it usually used to be used by, in the criminal justice system, I know that probation officers used to use it to motivate. I know that it has also been used by clinicians in therapeutic courts. But in public defense, because we are not therapists, we are not treating the client, we are advocating for the client. And it’s not greatly used and utilized.

(06:32): However I’ve seen that because if you use it as a communication tool, you can really get far out there with this approach in getting a full picture of the client because you form or develop a relationship and a connection with the client that allows them to be at ease. It allows them to open up about their life. It allows them to not feel judged. It allows them to feel like they are also equal partners in this whole case, which is all about them. And that is something really important that I think whether it’s a lawyer or a criminal defense social worker, needs to realize that we are working for the client.

(07:06): Even if they are not able to afford their representation, it doesn’t change the relationship, which is that they control how the case needs to proceed. And we as lawyers and social workers need to understand how to get the client where they want to go. And so it’s really driven by the client and this allows for that. And so for us, it’s been really helpful in mitigation because when I’m interviewing a client, instead of telling the client, “Do you have a mental health problem?” Or, “Are you using?” You approach these questions with more open-ended questions. Right?

(07:40): You approach and then you do a little bit of stroking where you allow the client to have faith and confidence in themselves to be able to answer these questions and realize that this is just a situation. This is not the whole client, this is not their whole life. They shouldn’t be judged or viewed from this lens of a charge, that this is just a part of their life, a very important part, but it is part. And we are here to navigate them through it and as much expertise we may have in social services and the law, they have about their life. And so they are going to bring what they can do. We need to bring what we can help them make possible from what they want to do. And so for that reason, I think MI has just been so helpful in my work personally with my clients, but I can see it being greatly used in public defense as a whole.

Ali (08:25): Great. And I’m really imagining that open questions in particular are a lovely way to establish interest and curiosity in the person’s perspective to come across as accepting rather than judgmental. I mean, after all, it’s this one difficult chapter in this person’s life and it’s by no means the whole story or the end of the story. It might be the beginning of a new story for them, but we’re really helping people write something new and different for themselves. They come to us maybe because they were accused, but not in order to be judged by us.

Gilan (09:02): Exactly. And for that reason, it allows us to take a step back and it allows us to, instead of going into the meeting with an agenda, to let it flow where it needs to go and still get the work done. Sometimes people think that using interventions, modalities or styles, communication styles is more time taking. But I’ve seen the opposite effect, that it doesn’t have to be time taking and you get a lot more from it because that relationship that you build, a foundation is going to set the stage moving forward. And so you will have less trouble down the road with your client or with understanding your client.

(09:38): And so it requires partnership. It requires a mindset of you wanting to be compassionate, empathetic, not only in your tone but also in your style. And I think it just automatically allows that. And it’s a switch that when you go into a meeting, it’s like if you start practicing it, it comes naturally. It won’t take that much time once you keep practicing it that this is how I want to show up for my client. And that is what I tell myself, “This is how I want to be for every client. This is how I should be.” And once you have that philosophy, I don’t think you can take it away.

Ali (10:14): Right. And we spend so much time trying to get people to do what we want them to do. And here really without a relationship, we’re not going anywhere anyway. So invest in the relationship and then better outcomes flow from that naturally. Also, you’re talking about building in affirmation or really being a strengths-based way of looking for the good in people, looking for what’s strong rather than what’s wrong, which must be refreshing to someone coming in who’s accustomed to feeling judged or accused, but to feel like their perspective matters, we’re supporting their autonomy, we’re standing alongside of them, helping them make decisions that feel right for them and helping a person feel like they matter because they do. And working together with people in this way can, I imagine make an extraordinary difference.

Gilan (11:02): It’s a huge difference. In some situations because of the way we talk to our clients and how we use MI, it’s not even about the win at the end of the legal case or whether, because we can’t guarantee that, right? We don’t know how it’s going to head. I can’t guarantee if somebody’s going to get housing. But what I can guarantee is that they can trust that I had their back and that they were equal partners in the process and that they can trust in me that I am not here to judge them. I’m not here to look down upon them. It is just that we, two people are coming together to work together to a solution that the client would like to have.

(11:37): And talking about affirmation, there’s a lot more that of course, as you know in MI talking about summarizing and reflecting, it’s been critical because sometimes we are in such rush that we give all this information thinking, “Oh, we are an expert.” So we think other people are understanding this, but we recognize that not everybody understands what our lingo is, the language we are using, the legalese or in social work, because I’m practicing social worker, when you’re talking about services and navigating them.

(12:04): We don’t sit down to explain it, but the least we can do is use MI in summarizing, reflecting, understanding did the client get what we were explaining to them. Because many times I have clients who will come later to me and said, “Oh, I didn’t know I pled to something and I had to do all of this stuff.” They didn’t understand. And I think if we just sit down and did the summarizing or we did a little bit of reflecting, they could have the opportunity to ask further questions, clarify information that could be helpful to make decisions for themselves.

Ali (12:34): Sure. And that really points to that ask-offer-ask style of saying, “Tell me what it is you’re understanding? I’d like to share with you a little bit about my perspective and see how these ideas or resources could be helpful to you and you can tell me what you think you want to do with them.” So that it really is truly a structured turn-taking partnership that helps people feel seen and heard, take in what matters to them, what they can use within their values and their strength system. And then helps people make decisions that feel right for them.

Gilan (13:05): That is accurate. And right decisions and who knows what is right. Each person’s right is their own right.

Ali (13:12): Well, exactly.

Gilan (13:13): MI allows for that. It allows for that space to not tell the client, “This is what’s right for you.” We can tell the client what’s best interest versus stated interest. And we always usually say that. And I usually go with what’s client’s stated interest, right? That’s what I’m here for. Because what I may feel is best for them may not be necessarily best, but if they have recognized something, how do we use MI to work towards that goal?

(13:35): But MI in itself is the goal. Right? The communication style is the way to address these concerns because that’s like the, as I said before, it’s the foundation for any good relationship building. And it’s so important to again, recognize that you’re not coming in directing people, you are guiding through the process and allowing them to guide their process. And it’s two individuals really coming together and having a shared commitment to a better relationship.

Ali (14:08): So a guiding style that works together in partnership towards outcomes that feel meaningful for the person?

Gilan (14:13): Exactly. Even in situations where you may not feel a client has a lot of options. As you know, as court systems, sometimes we don’t have a lot of options. We have — it’s do this or you’re going to be in jail. However, even in those situations, MI can be utilized to show empathy, respect, allowing clients to process information, giving them the space to answer any questions they have and to still advocate for them.

Ali (14:39): Right. And we also, we make an assumption, I think about what decisions would be best for the person. If I were the one making that decision, I might want to stay in jail. It may be the right thing for that person for that moment and only that person can decide. So we may say, “You can tell me what it is you think you’d like to do and why you think it would be best for you,” without making assumptions or trying to control the result, we may not know really what sits right for that person in that moment.

Gilan (15:09): It totally makes sense from what you’re saying because there are many clients who will be like, “Just put me in jail. Let me plead guilty. I don’t need to get out on probation and be stuck in the system for another year and keep coming back to court. I’d rather just finish with this case.” And I’m not saying there should be jails.

(15:22): I’m not at all advocating for jails here, but if a client is saying, “Gilan, I want to stay another night so I can get a bed next day in a place that you can find me rather than be out on the streets so that nobody will connect me to anything, I will rather take that hit for a one day.” Doesn’t mean that, but that’s the best of the worst situation. Right? What else can we do? The option is go to the streets or be in jail and the client chooses the one they want.

Ali (15:44): Yeah. But we’re helping people feel empowered with the decisions that feel best for them, yeah, and we can’t know.

Gilan (15:53): Yeah, that is right. We need to be able to take a step back and let the client decide that what is best for them, even if it doesn’t sit right with us, if that’s what the client wants. And we have to understand that we are coming with our own biases and baggage, and so we need to let go of those because this is not about us. And I think MI allows you to do that. It doesn’t mean you cannot give clients informed decision-making.

(16:16): It doesn’t mean you don’t give them all the options. You can do all of that. So you can do everything you do with MI, which is the beautiful part of it, and still let the client have the independence and autonomy to make the call that they need to make. And you can give your pros and cons for each decision the client wants to take and guide them. That is absolutely, you can do the mix of both worlds. And that is the best of both worlds.

Ali (16:41): It asks us to collaborate and support autonomy and to really respect and understand the person’s decisions from a guiding perspective.

Gilan (16:50): Right. Yeah. And another beautiful thing about MI for me has been that you don’t have to be a licensed social worker. You don’t have to be a clinical social worker. You can be any person who has interest in it, is learning about it, is gaining knowledge about it and can utilize it. And so it doesn’t have to be in healthcare settings alone. It can be done by lawyers, it can be used by judges, court staff, it can be done by social workers, it can be done by any social service provider, client advocates, case managers, you name it. And they can utilize it, mitigation specialists when they’re doing mitigation work, not only in misdemeanors but also in felony et cetera.

Ali (17:31): Yeah. And it sounds like the more that it’s in the air and in the water and part of our common language and part sort of within the fabric of our overall services to folks, the better, that maybe I refer someone to a service, they go to that service and they’re feeling the same attention to relationship and the whole person. Wouldn’t it be nice if we all treated people in this way?

Gilan (17:53): That is absolutely correct. And it’s unique that we focus so much on in general about when we talk about communication as with clients in our at least social service section. But this can be used between two colleagues, two professionals. This can be also utilized between a supervisor and a supervisee. It is not supposed to be only with clients whose desirability is low or whose confidence is low. It can be utilized at different situations. And I think it comes again to that approach. Once you practice it and you utilize it and make it your daily language, that is how you will proceed with it with whomever you meet and come across.

Ali (18:31): And as a social work supervisor, I’m guessing that might be part of your supervision style as well.

Gilan (18:37): Correct. I try to utilize it as much as possible. And of course, am I perfect? No, but I think it allows me, it guides me that this approach ensures that people feel heard, people feel that there’s a safe space and that they feel connected even if we don’t agree with decisions that are being made as a whole.

Ali (18:57): And Gilan, you obviously work with a lot of lawyers. How have you seen lawyers use this and have positive results? Or how would you hope more lawyers would start to use MI?

Gilan (19:09): I do work with a lot of lawyers. Specifically, I don’t know of many that use MI. They might be, but I just, I don’t have personal knowledge of that. But I know that it can be extremely helpful for lawyers. And if there are some lawyers who are listening to our podcast today, it would be really helpful for them to know that the things that I think would be really beneficial is that lawyers don’t have a lot of time to spend in interviewing clients, especially in misdemeanor courts.

(19:36): It’s just so many clients, so many cases, so many charges and a lot of things happening that this would be one of the best communication tools that they can have in their pocket to utilize in building strong relationships, effective relationships, and long-lasting relationships. Number two, it will allow them to free themselves from having to always be the expert, to always have that responsibility on their shoulder of guiding the conversation, taking the client further to the goals that they have set for the client, or even if the clients have mentioned what their goals are, this will allow them to just take a step back and sit and see what is happening, process and listen to daily take time to listen rather than respond.

(20:19): We get so much into, because of the time constraints that we have, we tend to go with the aim to respond to our clients. We want to go and be like, “I know all the answers. I need to look and because that is what would make me look like a great attorney or a great social worker, is if I have the answers.” And MI allows you to not necessarily have all the answers. It allows the client to answer their own life questions, and we take a step back and just guide them through the whole process.

(20:46): And I think it allows them to just relax a little bit in this, and this is going to be really helpful. Third, that connection through MI will allow them to be better advocates in court. So not only outside court where they’re visiting clients in jail or in their offices or wherever they decide to meet, but also in the courtrooms when they’re fighting for their clients.

(21:06): MI allows you to have so much knowledge of your client by the time you’re already in court that you won’t need to have to take breaks to answer every question, to go back to your client, to get a fuller picture, because hopefully through open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, you will have a lot of the information that you need. So for lawyers, I think this is one of the greatest bestest tools for communication if they want to build that healthy relationship and an effective relationship with their clients.

Ali (21:37): Yeah. And it sounds like it really is the best use of the very little time that we have with someone. Also, to be able to work less hard and have better outcomes. I have as a lawyer, I have some of the answers, the person I’m serving has some of the answers, and together we can do this.

Gilan (21:55): That is correct.

Ali (21:57): Thank you so much, Gilan, for joining us today.

Gilan (22:00): Thank you for having me over. Appreciate you all.

Ali (22:02): And to our listeners, please join us next time on Changing the Conversation.

Erika Simon, Producer (22:07): Visit C4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.

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