An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
“It is a momentum…awe experience invites us into curiosity; it naturally then draws you deeper into the experience. Like for me with leaves, look at those. What are they up to? They’re reaching towards sunlight. Why is that? Oh, they’re photosynthesizing. Well, it’s actually the most important biological process on earth.”
MINT trainers Carol DeFrancesco and Amy Shanahan join host Ali Hall to discuss the practice of Awe, how it opens us up to curiosity and helps us connect with others.
October 12, 2026
[Music]
Ali Hall (Host) (00:07):
Hello, and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host today, Ali, joining you from San Francisco, California. And we have a very special episode today, followed by another special episode with two treasured members of the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers, or MINT. Joined today by Carol DeFrancesco, a MINT member and senior researcher who is always on the lookout for approaches that allow us to hold the promise of human experience along with the unavoidable pain. And today, of course, we’re talking about awe, as we will be next time. And Carol let us know that awe helps us build that capacity, and she brings this to her teaching, applied research, and clinical care. Greetings, Carol, and welcome.
Carol DeFrancesco (Guest) (00:53):
Thanks so much. Great to be here.
Ali (00:56):
And also joining us for awe, episodes one and two, we have Amy Shanahan, also a member of MINT and a behavioral health consultant dedicated to helping professionals master the art of motivational interviewing, or MI. She brings a thoughtful curiosity to today’s episode, as with all things that she does, exploring what happens when the science of awe meets intentional, empathic conversation. Hey, Amy. Welcome.
Amy Shanahan (Guest) (01:20):
Well, thanks for having me. I’m so happy to be here with my favorite people.
Ali (01:23):
And so today we’re at episode one of two about awe and also specifically MI and awe. But let’s jump on into that if you will. And for either of you, how would you define awe, and what would you say are the defining characteristics of an awe experience? What is this we’re talking about here?
Carol (01:43):
When I think about awe, I think often we get clues from our body first before even thinking about it, like getting goosebumps or welling up with tears. And then it’s like, “Oh, what’s happening here?” So those experiences that invite us to pause and often go beyond our ability to describe them, often it’s something vast, could be something kind of ordinary, but it’s extraordinary in some way.
Ali (02:15):
Yeah, thanks for that. It’s kind of like words are but a marker for that which can’t be said, and awe fits within that experience. Sometimes we can’t even describe it. Amy, what would you say about that?
Amy (02:27):
The only thing I add is, and I’ve recently been talking about awe on the street, if you will, with folks, and you don’t really have to define it. Sometimes they just know what you’re talking about when they hear the word awe. I love the concept that we have a universal language around it, that even in different countries we react with similar throat or guttural sounds like aw or ooh. And I think that that’s really the thing that stands out to me is sometimes we don’t even really have to define it. When we start to talk about it, people will really get to the sense of, “Oh, I experience it this way, but I also experience it that way.”
Ali (03:05):
So really a profound astonishment kind of a sensation and people might not even have words immediately. And science does tell us a lot about how awe impacts our nervous system. And say more about that, please, and especially about the areas of the brain that seem to soften or light up. Something about our state of consciousness shifts. What is it about awe? What happens there?
Carol (03:24):
Yeah. You know, Ali, when you were describing this collective experience, I think that’s one of the things that science points toward. It is really prosocial. It helps us connect with other people. And when I think about awe experiences, they are sometimes things that stop us. We’re cruising along with a to-do list maybe or thinking inwardly. And an awe experience helps us break out of that inward focus, and we can measure this in the brain, which is fascinating, and helps us look outward and connect outwardly. So the prosocial aspects of awe I think are really intriguing and measurable.
Ali (04:03):
And you, Amy?
Amy (04:05):
Yeah. The thing that I note is it does really settle you in. I’d love to use all the scientific words, dysregulate or sympathetic nerves or vagus nerves, but I’m not as savvy with that stuff. And I like the practical pieces, that it really calms us. It keeps us from that fight-flight response or a defensive response, and I think that that’s really powerful when you think about it. And it connects to that prosocial piece that you’re talking about, Carol.
Carol (04:35):
The research around it is that when we have an experience that’s awe filled, it naturally just changes our state. We don’t even have to try to be more connected, more compassionate. It just flows. It just flows out of these experiences. And it’s almost as if when we measure it in the brain, it’s almost as if we get out of our own way and the sort of self-referential thinking that is prone more toward ego, anxiety, depression, this more closed myopic thinking really just settles down. Wow. We’re just open to more curiosity, more creativity. We actually become more rigorous thinkers when we are awe primed.
Ali (05:16):
Thanks, Carol, for that. And it really is cool stuff. I’ve got a private little group chat going with the two of you so that anytime I’m out in the world and I stumble into an awe experience, I get a chance to really dive into it and relish it fully, and then I get to snap a picture of it if it’s picturable and then send it to you, too. It feels like the kind of experience you just can’t wait to share with someone else. Maybe not 100% of the time, but there are those moments walking down the street and seeing the most gorgeous flower volunteering out of a crack in the concrete. Perhaps unexpected, didn’t intend to have that, but going on awe walks, bringing your camera and having a group chat so you can send it to folks.
(05:56):
So what else happens to our state of consciousness, even maybe our very states of being, when we have awe experiences? And why does that matter?
Amy (06:05):
My reaction, and I’ll share this from workshops that we’ve done, not just from my own experience, is we ask people to draw their experience of awe and then we ask them what their experience was and so many people share that they were either not in the drawing or very small in the drawing and they really experience that vastness, that it’s something bigger than them and they’re a part of it.
Carol (06:32):
And that’s one of the central features of defining an awe experience. It’s that you have this smaller sense of self. And paradoxically, that’s a good thing. From a western individualistic culture, there’s this big sense of self, seems to be our socialized norm, but the smaller sense of self that is humbled in a good way and also connected to this larger just mystery of trees and animals and ocean and mountains and people. So that is one of the key defining pieces of it. And I think that’s also connected to our ability to look outward and to be more curious is that smaller sense of self is really operating.
Ali (07:20):
Yeah, thanks both of you. And so it feels like an enhanced sense of humility, a shifting of perspective of ourselves in relationship to things, and also a connection that we might not have observed before or seen before, part of a much larger fabric and connected in a deeper and more meaningful way. It sounds like the awe experience has something going on with that.
(07:42):
I’m also sort of struck by what you’re saying here in terms of the wholeheartedness that it encourages in us and that sense of curiosity and wonder, knowing that we don’t know everything, but it increases our openness to that which is out there and maybe even indescribable.
Carol (07:59):
And that’s one of the second defining characteristics of it is that you have this vast experience, it’s hard to put into words. And because of that, it breaks open our understanding in a way that we have to make a mental adjustment and it kind of breaks open our structured thinking in a way that allows us to invite more possibilities.
Ali (08:23):
Right. So it takes us out of habit, narrow ways of thinking and doing things. And so it really is an expansive experience, it sounds like. Right. Well, we’ve been talking a lot about awe and it sounds really vast and it sounds expansive and we seem very open and it absolutely shifts our states of being in consciousness. But my guess is that most people have experienced awe whether they stopped with it in the moment or not, but there must be different categories or examples of awe. What are the typical kinds of awe experiences that probably each of us has been able to access in our lives?
Amy (09:01):
Well, I think that nature comes out when we first start talking with people or invite them to think about it. And you mentioned that, Ali, and people will talk about a tree or a flower peeking out from the concrete sidewalk. So nature is certainly one, and there are several, so that’s a great question.
(09:20):
One of my go-to awe experiences is around music. And I’ve gone to lots of concerts, so not every concert I experience awe, but there are a few that have had big moments for me, but even listening to music or hearing a very moving piece. And I know that you’re very into music, Ali, and you share really nice pieces that have moved you. But, Carol, you probably have some other examples. There’s at least eight categories. We’ve added a couple to the list ourselves.
Carol (09:53):
Yeah. Absolutely. This morning in anticipation of our meeting today, I thought, “I need to practice some awe,” this morning and just slowing down and noticing things and breathing, breathing into whatever I’m noticing.
(10:07):
And what I noticed this morning were the birds flying overhead. And where I live in Portland, Oregon on the West Coast of the United States, we have crows that fly back and forth east and west. And then I think they’re cedar waxwings, but some smaller bird. A flock of them were moving in this collective movement and all of a sudden they would turn and turn again and… How do they know? Who’s leading this flock? How do they all know to turn at that moment?
(10:38):
And that is one of the categories of awe’s collective movement. You can think about it as human beings if we’re dancing together. And I also think just watching animals move collectively can be so awe-inspiring.
Ali (10:54):
Yeah. So those are some really powerful examples in training our movement with others and participating in some sort of meaningful collective experience. Even if mundane, like a group that goes out and jogs together or something like that, might very well likely land into an awe experience in and of themselves or, like you say, observing nature and also, of course, music, all sorts of other experiences. I imagine that they’re visual, auditory, movement related, sensory related kinds of experiences.
(11:24):
It is the case that awe, maybe unexpectedly, shows up in even the most mundane moments. And I think people get jaded about their lives and same old, same old, making the bed and washing the dishes. And then all of a sudden, awe shows up, maybe even with experiences that we have in life that are repeated over time or the way your dog is drinking from the water bowl or wagging the tail in a certain way. And these moments of really full, wholehearted presence with something and delighting in it. It sounds like even in the most mundane moments, any of us can discover awe.
Amy (11:57):
You know what I was thinking about that, Ali, when you were talking, when we work with people, some of us are in behavioral healthcare, some of us work with people directly who are healing. I was talking about this the other day, and I said, “Well, I cry at Hallmark commercials.” And when I say that, a lot of folks will agree with that and go, “Me too,” and I never had a name for it. And I think one of the more common experiences of awe is what they refer to as witnessing moral beauty when someone is being kind, when someone is being compassionate.
(12:34):
I was tearing up when someone got an award. I didn’t even know who they were, but they accomplished something. They worked hard for something. Like you said, it seems like everyday stuff, but when we watch someone grow or have a courageous moment and overcome something, which is common in our workplace for those of us in behavioral healthcare or healthcare, we’re moved by that. And that’s an experience of awe as well.
Carol (13:03):
Yeah, without a doubt. That is the most common category of awe when we witness somebody’s overcoming an obstacle, somebody’s strength, when we witness kindness. And also, as I’m saying that, I’m thinking about another category of awe is the life cycle. Even something as simple as I was witnessing what looked like a granddaughter and a grandmother walking in the park and they were holding hands, and it was so beautiful. I was literally moved to tears. Here’s a life that’s coming to its end, and here’s a life that’s right in the middle, hopefully, and vibrant, this human experience of connection and kindness.
Ali (13:45):
Yeah, thanks for that. So that really precious or truly transitional moments where that passage is observable, whether in us or something that we are actually seeing or experiencing with other people, it sounds like. Witnessing the moral beauty of extending, receiving, witnessing kindness, witnessing benevolence or compassion, whether one is in a conversation or observing others, observing acts of kindness could certainly use a lot more of those in our lives. Certainly in our next episode, we’re going to get a lot more into very specifically the connection of awe and MI or the motivational conversation or really transformational moments that connect to awe. Awe is easily something that any person can experience. My guess is that some people have had more of those experiences than others in life, and to really truly care about and be in the world, ideally one would have some awe experiences.
(14:38):
But to close us out for this episode, and then we’ll pick up more specifically with MI and awe on our next, how does one practice awe, and why should one start or expand if they’ve already got a practice going? What do you two think about that?
Amy (14:52):
Well, I’m going to start by saying people already do this without knowing they do it. There’s some written indication that we do it a few times a day. And to your point, Ali, maybe some people do it more or less. I notice even when I talk with you, Carol, that even if you don’t intentionally practice it, you’re paying attention all the time to what’s around you, and you’re moved by it. When you share it, I think that’s the power of it, too, is sharing it with someone else because it reminds me that I may have had that maybe little awe experience, but you can deliberately do it. You can choose to stop and pause and take a breath.
(15:31):
I remember early on experiencing it thinking, “Oh, this is something I have to stop and sit and get into a meditative state.” It’s not. You can stop and you could breathe and you can pay attention, and the person standing next to you doesn’t even know what you’re doing. So that’s one thing that you could do to practice it. Whether you’re in your own home, in your own backyard, wherever you are, you can experience it.
(15:54):
I was traveling with my best friend, and I noticed that we both pause when we see things. But we could do it deliberately, too, and we start to get openhearted and curious about the things around us when we’re practicing it. So that was my result of practicing it with my friend. She didn’t even know I was doing it.
Carol (16:11):
Ali, you mentioned sharing awe, and that is a practice too, right? So having a little group that has a shared language around awe and sharing photos and things. I think if you have the opportunity to follow a toddler around… My son was young. The first time he discovered a potato bug, those roly-poly little bugs, he was beside himself with wonder, and to experience that through his eyes and through just his whole bodily experience, I mean, his exuberance was literally awe-inspiring for me. And I looked at this roly-poly bug with the new eyes, the eyes of a toddler.
(16:53):
The other thing that I think is really cool about awe is we don’t fatigue it. So the more that we practice it, the more we just notice… It’s not going to the Grand Canyon every week. It’s not going to Disneyland. It’s really getting in touch with the beautiful, simple things that are right at our fingertips.
(17:12):
One of the things that I have started doing is just noticing leaves, like the leaves on a tree. And I was inspired by this because Amy was far ahead of me practicing awe, and I was like, “Oh, I’m a fraud. I’m not practicing as deliberately as I could be.” And so now when I see a leaf, it’s a reminder to me to pause and slow down. It has invited more and more curiosity. I have leaves all around me every day, and that’s an easy entry to an awe practice.
Ali (17:45):
Thank you both for that. And some things that I have also noticed about awe, particularly in busy, burdensome times, I every day anticipate at some point during the day, I will have an awe moment. And I think being open to it, just as you would if you planned a trip, you would anticipate it. You’d anticipate what restaurants you might go to or what sites you might see. But we’re anticipating having a good time on that trip. And so every day I do definitely anticipate that I will experience awe.
(18:14):
And I think another thing about really encoding it for ourselves when we have these experiences is really truly taking a moment to savor. That certainly links to positive experiences and really makes them more pronounced in our lives, even if the world is difficult around us sometime, doing what we can to expand the lovely experiences that grace us.
Carol (18:34):
It is a momentum. As you practice awe and continue to notice… Because an awe experience invites us into curiosity, it naturally then draws you deeper into the experience. Like for me with leaves, look at those. What are they up to? They’re reaching towards sunlight. Why is that? Oh, they’re photosynthesizing. Well, it’s actually the most important biological process on earth. We would all collapse if it wasn’t for leaves photosynthesizing. A year ago, I didn’t walk by a leaf and think about that and how it’s supporting my life in a very real way. And then what’s the byproduct of photosynthesis? It’s oxygen.
(19:18):
So now when I walk by leaves on trees, I think I’m literally breathing with the leaves. And I didn’t have that concept when I first started looking at leaves. I just thought, “Oh, they’re so beautiful in the sunlight,” and then I moved on. And so the ongoing practice of noticing has invited me to a deeper curiosity and this expanding sense of wonder and also literal connection. It’s not just metaphorical that I’m connected to these leaves. I’m literally connected to the oxygen that they’re putting out into the world. I’m literally connected to the products of photosynthesis that support all of plant life, that then support all of animal life. That includes me. And I guess I wouldn’t have predicted that just by me thinking, “I got to get on it because Amy’s practicing awe, and I’m not,” and just how that has unfolded. So I think the opportunity of looking more deeply really can expand into that unfolding.
Ali (20:22):
So it’s not just competitive awe seeking, but it’s actually really raising our capacity to notice our interdependence and connectedness and that even when the world is difficult, we’re not alone and we’re supported, everything matters and everything belongs. Well, thank you both for taking time to talk about awe today and all of the categories and why it matters and what we can do to have more of it in our lives. Next time that we get together, we’re going to talk about the specific relationship of awe and motivational interviewing. To our listeners also, please join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
Visit c4innovates.com, and follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Lee Locke-Hardy and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.