An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
“Data is qualitative. Data is conversations…Data is lived experience.” Policy advocate Tymber Hudson drops knowledge on the world of policy, how young people can become involved and how to avoid burnout as a person with lived experience in this conversation with host Rowan Willis-Gorman.
March 16, 2026
[Music]
Rowan Willis-Gorman (Host) (00:06): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Rowan Willis-Gorman. I’m a Subject Matter Expert and Manager at C4 Innovations within our Center for Youth Well-Being. Today’s conversation is part of a podcast series called, The Next Generation of Recovery Leaders. Where together we’ll learn from youth peer workers and recovery innovators across the country about how they’re utilizing creativity, grassroots organizing, and determination to uplift the behavioral health system for them. Through conversation and reflective storytelling, we’ll explore the current landscape of youth and young adult recovery systems across the country, discuss how innovative youth voices have impacted those systems and how harmful legislation is being met with passionate young advocates pushing towards a brighter future. Our aim is to uplift and recognize the vibrant youth leaders and to inspire the next generation of advocates. Today I have Tymber Hudson with me. Tymber is a lived experience policy expert calling in from Denver, Colorado today. Hi, Tymber. It’s great to have you join us.
Tymber Hudson (Guest) (01:10): Hi, Rowan. Thank you so much for having me.
Rowan (01:12): Tymber has worked really across the country in various different roles doing all different levels of policy, and Tymber and I both used to do work with Youth MOVE National. I was on the board, Tymber worked on staff, and I’ve been able to watch and learn from Tymber for, I don’t even know how many years now. So, I’m so excited to have you join us today, Tymber. To get us started, I’d love to hear about your journey of getting into policy work. What was that like?
Tymber (01:43): Thank you so much for the question. So, my journey to getting into policy is actually kind of unique, if you will. I grew up in Oklahoma where I spent time in the foster care system and so my entry to policy was actually working on policy at the state and local level to work on reform around how young people were involved in their exiting of the foster care system. A lot of the work that I did was around helping our independent living program, which was serving a lot of young people that were at universities and just helping us understand what are our rights as students, how do we navigate the university and the administrative hierarchy that happens sometimes, but also just understanding as many young people who have exited the foster care system and pursue college, many are first generation students, which comes with its own challenge.
(02:28):
Unfortunately, we can’t call home and ask our parents, “How do I deal with this or how do I navigate that?” And sometimes knowing how to ask for support can be really difficult. A lot of the work that I did was around creating pathways for people to better access support locally at universities, but also statewide.
(02:44):
In school, I actually studied musical theater. I love theater, I love dance, love the theatrics. And my senior year, I really was adamant about going to perform and I wanted to do a touring production or maybe try a cruise ship, and I spent a lot of time and money auditioning and traveling. And unfortunately, I didn’t really get anything. And I was a little set back by that. Emotionally, it was something I had to battle with, but out of that grew an opportunity. Throughout all of my time in college, I was always involved in policy work at the state level, but through that, I gained an opportunity to join the National Foster Youth Institute for the Congressional Foster Youth Shadow Day. It’s a mouthful. They bring over a hundred young people from across the US to DC, and we are educated on what do elected leaders do at this level, and how can we advocate for change for the foster care system at a national level?
(03:36):
And so being a part of that work and being a part of the work at the local and state level allowed me the opportunity to actually take an internship on Congress Hill after I graduated. And so instead of going to Broadway, I actually went to DC and got more into policy. When I was working on Capitol Hill, I was working with Congresswoman Karen Bass, who is currently the mayor of LA. She was the leader of the Congressional Caucus on Foster Youth. And so, this was the congressional caucus that does a lot of policy work impacting the national foster care system.
(04:04):
And that’s where I really gained a lot of my roots and understanding of what is policy, what is our role in advocating for policy? What does that look like? One of the things I learned out of that is that not everyone is always going to agree with your policy, not everyone is going to understand where you’re coming from or why this is important. Sometimes it takes a lot of patience and a lot of persistence to really drive that point and drive that goal of, this is why this is important and I’m not giving up on it because you can’t understand or see the importance in that.
Rowan (04:32): That’s amazing, Tymber. I did not know some of that. I also really wanted to do theater and just never worked out for me either. It’s amazing to see theater people go into policy work, but also the piece around you becoming an intern on the Hill. That is such a cool place to kind of learn from all different types of policymakers working in all different flavors of policy. I think my work in policy has always been either very strictly around mental health or around youth, whether it be youth in foster care or with Maryland’s State Council on Child Abuse and Neglect, but it’s so cool to see your evolution of policy work. How has your experience been in navigating all of those different levels of policy?
Tymber (05:18): My experience has been a journey, if you will. I would say there are highs and lows within advocating for policy. I think joining the way I did really presented an opportunity for me to focus on issues more broadly, but more specifically on how are issues at large impacting young people. And so, when I began to hone in on what is my focus or what is my center when it comes to youth work in specific, I really landed at the intersection of protecting and promoting LGBTQ+ young people, especially those who have experienced the system. So often LGBTQ+ young people that are within the system are placed within group homes or behavioral health centers instead of more respite or even foster homes, and oftentimes that is due to how they identify and the family not being willing to accept them because of that. And that’s hard to deal with.
(06:05):
It’s even harder from the policy perspective as an advocate to sit with the people that are making these decisions and to advocate and show them this is the research that shows that when we create these welcoming and inclusive environments for young people, it allows them to thrive. It’s not just about them identifying with a certain sexuality or having a certain background. It’s about creating an environment that allows them to explore who they are no matter what that is. Sometimes when you are a champion of that message, you’re often met with backlash. You’re often met with people who have their own agenda, who choose to create these negative narratives about it and about you for even taking this position.
(06:42):
And I think for me, as someone who leads with their heart, I had to learn how to not take it personal. Someone disagreeing with my policy stance is not a personal attack on me, although it feels like it, right? Because so much of what I’m advocating for is I’m advocating for things that I experienced myself. And so sometimes when people say, no or I don’t believe you or this isn’t a real thing, it’s actually telling my younger self your experience doesn’t matter. That’s what it feels like, but that’s not true. Learning how to reframe and learning how to protect myself while also advocating is something that I’ve had to do and learn across the board.
(07:14):
One of the things that I love about being an advocate and working with policy, because a lot of people are really focused on numbers, focused on the research, show me the study, show me the data, if you will. But I think one thing that we always forget when we talk about data is that data is also qualitative. Data is conversations. Data is experiences and data is lived experience.
(07:34):
A lot of the things that I’ve been a part of and been able to do is really help people understand why lived experience is qualitative data and how that is so important to the work that we’re doing. So often we have people making these decisions in these policy rooms who have never experienced the foster care system. You’ve never had to spend time outside of your home. You’ve never been woken up in the middle of night and told you can’t live here anymore when this already isn’t your home. And so, there’s this certain level of connection to these issues that people don’t have, and they don’t understand and so they’re making misinformed decisions.
(08:05):
All that to say, advocating for policy at different levels can be a challenge because again, people don’t always see or understand where you’re coming from. I would say there’s definitely power in numbers. There’s power in experience.
Rowan (08:19): That’s amazing, Tymber. I also love the piece about lived experience being qualitative data. I’ve never heard that before. I’m going to steal it and tell everyone about it. I wanted to ask and kind of talk about, I know in my experience in doing policy work, I think before I got to that level of, I understand most of this, someone taught me how to read the legalese of a white page. I learned really through the guidance of others, but I never had a degree. And a lot of times I think before I reached that level of confidence, I felt uncomfortable and I didn’t realize that lived experience equated to qualitative data. Did you ever experience that discomfort and how did you push past it if you did?
Tymber (09:08): 100%, yes. I have felt that discomfort and it’s something that I still battle with, if I’m honest. I mentioned that I’m a musical theater major and I happen to do policy work. Already we have that parallel of, how did you get here? So many people in policy, like you said, have these legal degrees and it’s a lot of legalese and public policy majors and all of these different policy-specific people, and it feels like I don’t know if I’m supposed to be here. One of the things that has been really helpful for me and understanding pushing past discomfort is understanding that yes, policy is important and policy has been historically used to oppress communities.
(09:46):
And so, policy is not always right. Policy was used to justify genocide. It’s still being used to justify genocide. It was used to justify slavery. It was used to justify segregation. It was used to justify Jim Crow laws. Policy has been used to legally disenfranchise communities. What I would offer to anyone that’s listening is something that helps me get out of my discomfort is understanding why I’m here, what is my purpose, and also understanding that this may not go the way I expect it to. Maybe this isn’t going to have the outcome that I hope it does, but I’m starting the conversation. I’m chipping away at the iceberg. I’m taking the first step on Mount Everest, eventually we will get to the top.
Rowan (10:25): That’s a great way to put that Tymber. It is kind of just slowly chipping away. And you’re so right, policy has been used to cause immense amounts of harm, and that’s a frustrating thing to acknowledge as you fight against it and try to reshape it for something that is no longer a tool for oppression, but a tool for uplifting people and supporting people and encouraging people. I’ve seen a lot of growth and success, especially in local and state settings, and I’ve also seen a lot of people get engaged and want to learn more about it, but I want to see more young people. I’d love your thoughts about how might they start the process of getting involved in doing policy.
Tymber (11:10): So first I would say understanding what policies impact your interest areas. And I say interest areas in specific because there’s policy around everything. Like you mentioned, policy isn’t always elected officials and elected leaders, right? Looking at what’s local to you is a great way of understanding and working on policy. Maybe it’s something within my student organization at school. What are the bylaws that govern this student organization and maybe they need to be updated? That’s policy change. When you think about what’s going on in your community and what is having an impact on your community’s experience, there’s a certain level at which that impact is coming from. Working with or understanding who are the elected leaders or who are the players, they can also help you understand that. Their job is to work for you.
(11:55):
I don’t think people understand that enough. Elected leaders are not celebrities. They shouldn’t feel out of touch, you should know them. They are making real decisions. They have real impact and harm on lives, on people, on communities. And it is our job as the people who vote them in, as the people whose tax dollars support their salaries and supports their budgets and their offices and allows them to pass the policy, we have a responsibility to hold them accountable.
(12:23):
One of the things that I will also flag about being a part of policy, especially as a person with lived experience and even as a young person, burnout is real. Exhaustion is real. The worst thing you can do is try to just push through it. We talked about pushing through the discomfort, I think there’s a difference in discomfort and exhaustion. This is temporary discomfort versus, I’m exhausted. From the second I wake up and think about being a part of this work, I’m, “Ugh, why am I here? No one’s listening to me. It doesn’t feel great.”
(12:49):
Those are real feelings. And sometimes that is an indicator that the policy work you’re a part of is not feeling good to you. It maybe is not a great time to be in that specific environment. Sometimes maybe I’m going to think about being more on an organizational policy level for this amount of time because being a part of this was not feeling well, but I know that advocating for policy change is important to me and I’m not going to let someone scare me away from being a part of that and I’m also not going to burn myself out trying to prove that I belong here. We have to balance that.
Rowan (13:21): That is so true, Tymber. And I think like you talked about when it’s your own lived experience, it’s so emotionally charged and there is something about pushing through that discomfort, but it can be so exhausting. It’s so important to be thoughtful and avoid the burnout. I think even if you need to step away for a little bit, it’s such important and meaningful work. So, Tymber, when you think of the next 10 years, what is your hope for how youth and young people are involved in policy decision-making? And you can think of this at a state level or a national level, whatever kind of comes to mind for you.
Tymber (14:03): In the next 10 years, I would love to see policy that is not only led by young people, but also is advocated for and put in place by young people. And what I mean by that is I want to see more young people work as elected officials on city council. So often we forget that there are things that happen at the federal and state level that trickle down, but if we’re talking about having an immediate impact on the roads, on the construction, on the local parks, those are the people that are on city council, those are our school boards and I want to see more young people, not only within those spaces, but leading those spaces.
(14:40):
How do we make youth engagement a practice rather than an option for policy work? How do we instill it as a foundation that should always support the decisions and the work that we’re doing? I would love to see, again, just more young people out and expressing who they are and making policy that is going to actually change their community. We like to think that the older people have it figured out because they have these years of experience, they’re more knowledgeable, but I would argue that young people may beat us, right? They have a way of looking at issues in a creative way, and oftentimes that’s because they don’t have the historical context of all of the hierarchy and the infighting and the things that happen when people try to make change in these areas.
(15:23):
I would love young people to be creative about how they advocate for policy. So often we stick to the traditional ways of we need the research or I’m going to go and talk with my elected leader and present this report, but I would love to see people really rely on their creativity and tap into their joy and even the creative arts when it comes to advocating for policy.
(15:45):
I think sometimes we forget the power of art and the power of expressing ourselves through art and how that can be a medium for policy change. That’s a part of storytelling, and storytelling is qualitative data. I want to see young people maybe making skits around, this is a policy that’s impacted my community and this is what needs to change, and let that go viral on social media. I would love to see people be more inventive on their approach to advocating for policy. And I will say that’s going to come with, people aren’t going to understand it. And that’s okay, it doesn’t make it wrong, it doesn’t mean you’re not doing something right, it just means you’re not talking to the right people yet. And sometimes you got to talk to the wrong people a little bit before you get to the right person. And so being brave and being courageous and knowing that the mission and the path that I’m on is the right one is the way that you really work past that discomfort.
Rowan (16:40): Tymber, I love that so much. It’s art and creativity can be such a cool way to influence policy work, a small shout-out to On Our Own of Maryland. When I worked there, we started what we called different types of academies for young people, and one of them was our Policy Academy. It was a way to introduce young adults to policy work. It included, one, we gave stipends. Yay, everyone loves stipends. It included presentations from mental health lobbyists on the Maryland legislative session, how to read a bill, how to navigate all of that process, but it also included a presentation from a local artist on how to utilize art for advocacy. I think On Our Own of Maryland is still running those. If you’re a young person in Maryland and you want to learn more about how to engage with policy, totally suggest engaging with them and registering for the Advocacy Academy.
Tymber (17:39): There are organizations, there are lots of nonprofits that are at the state level, at the national level that are advocating for change in policy. A lot of them also have internships or programs that are geared towards young people in specific. And so, working to find those can be a great opportunity on understanding, what is my entry as a young person to policy work? It’s not always about having all the answers, it’s about being curious.
Rowan (18:03): Tymber, thank you so much for joining us today. It has been such a treat and such a delight to have you with us.
Tymber (18:11): Thank you so much for having me, Rowan. This has been amazing.
Rowan (18:14): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Lee Locke-Hardy (Producer) (18:20): Visit C4innovates.com and follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Lee Locke-Hardy and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Listen to other episodes in the Next Generation Recovery Leaders series.