An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast.
“People like Howie the Harp and Sally Zinman… laid that fertile soil for those of us that have come after them, for us to really grow.” Attorney and rights advocate LaVerne Miller joins host Livia Davis to discuss her experiences in the recovery movement, the lessons she has learned, and her hopes for the future of the movement.
March 30, 2026
[Music]
Livia Davis (Host) (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Livia Davis. I’m the Chief Learning Officer at C4 Innovations. Today’s conversation is part of a podcast series called Learning from Our Recovery Elders to Inform Our Workers Recovery Leaders, where we invite recovery leaders to share their wisdom. Our aim is not only to preserve our guests’ invaluable insights, but also to inspire current and future leaders as we work to continue to expand access to recovery.
(00:39):
My guest today is LaVerne Miller calling in from New York. LaVerne is an attorney with lived experience in the mental health system. For the past 30 years, she has devoted her career to developing the peer workforce, providing technical assistance and support to peer-run organizations and providers.
(00:58):
She was the first director of the world-renowned Howie the Harp Peer Advocacy Center, and as a consultant in such areas as the intersection of legal criminal systems and mental health. She’s also been the lead on several of SAMHSA’s system transformation grants, and SAMHSA stands for the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration. Hello, LaVerne. Thank you so much for joining us today.
LaVerne Miller (Guest) (01:22): Thanks for the invitation. I’m really glad to join you today.
Livia (01:26): Wonderful. And LaVerne, as we talked about, you’ve been working in the field of recovery for many years. Would you please share with our audience how you got involved in the field of recovery?
LaVerne (01:38): Oh, wow. A few days ago, I was really thinking about how did I become involved? I’m an attorney by trade, and I worked as an Assistant District Attorney in New York County for several years. And in 1995, 1996, I first began to experience depression, severe depression. And when I got discharged from the hospital and was in treatment, I was trying to figure out a way that I could combine, leverage my legal skills without necessarily practicing all the time as a lawyer.
(02:06):
And so, this is interesting, one day I’m looking at the New York Times’ want ads, and I’ve seen advertisement for the director of the Howie the Harp Center. And so, that’s how I first got involved. I really was looking for something where I didn’t want to totally abandon my legal career, but I also felt that it was really an asset during the ’90s, 2000s, some of the expertise that was really needed in things that were happening in this country involving mental health and criminal justice. So, that’s how I got involved, really. It was sort of bliss.
Livia (02:36): Yes. So, your background as a lawyer combined with your lived expertise really made you an ideal candidate for this position. So, what was your position there and what exactly does Howie the Harp do? I think it might be just good to share with our audience.
LaVerne (02:55): Howie the Harp was an advocate from California and came to New York and he was involved with community access. And unfortunately, Howie died a few months before the center opened. And so, I was hired because I really felt that employment is part of treatment and treatment is part of employment. And that as many of you know, many people in our community either have never worked or once they become ill, never returned to work.
(03:21):
There was also at that time with Paolo del Vecchio from SAMHSA and others and the consumer movement were talking about peers working in different kinds of settings. And so, when I was at Howie the Harp Peer Advocacy Center, my goal was to really be the Harvard of peer training programs, to really prepare the graduates of our center to really work in multiple settings without losing their values, for them to really understand what the role would be.
(03:46):
So, what we did was design a training and collaborating with many provider organizations like CASES with Ann-Marie Louison and Sam Tsemberis and Mike Lesser and others really designed a training to prepare peers to work in the field, and it was really a village. We all came together. I think the first year, we were doing the training, and we didn’t even really have a whole bunch of money to pay consultants, but we had people in the city that were really committed.
(04:09):
And so, we trained people at several components. At the time I was working and director, there was a six-month in class training and then a three to six-month internship. And we now know that even in the non-peer world, internships or co-ops, cooperative learning experience are really the model. People get a chance at some hands-on experience.
(04:29):
And in closing, what happened is that when 9/11 happened, my colleague and I, Jody Silver, we went to the funder, went to the state and really said basically, “Our community is really suffering.” We were already on the edge, but 911 has made it 10 times, 100 times worse.
(04:45):
So, we got funding from OMH via the Federal government to establish the New York City Peer Support Initiative, and that really broke down a whole lot of barriers. People could call up for support. Our peers were in the community. So then, after two or three years, the notion that peers could do this kind of work, there wasn’t a question. Things evolved.
(05:06):
And since that time, period. It’s really the number of peers who working in New York City, whether it’s with government or providers or with peer organizations has really exploded.
Livia (05:17): Yeah, it’s an incredible legacy to think about where Howie the Harp started and the size of the peer workforce now nationwide in the settings they work. That must be just such an incredible vantage point to come at this work from and having that as your foundation for the rest of your career.
(05:39):
When you think about the history and the progression of the recovery movement and the peer workforce development since then, could you talk a little bit about what do you feel are some of the biggest challenges facing the field of recovery?
LaVerne (05:54): I think one of the biggest challenges is just funding. A lot of the peer-run organizations have depended a lot on federal funding for organizations like statewide consumer networks and other things, and both state and federal funding. And we all know that when federal funding is cut, sometimes it trickles down to the state.
(06:13):
So, that’s one of the biggest issues that peer organizations experience, looking at other opportunities for funding, really identifying funding in your local community, whether we’re talking about working with financial institutions like your community banks, to not view peer organizations as an island unto themselves, Livia. We exist in a dynamic community of which we can be of service to peers and non-peers alike.
(06:38):
So, I think that’s one of the challenges that peer organizations experience is how do you recast yourself and really view yourself as not cloistered into this community where everybody has the same story and the same experience but really look outward and really collaborate with other non-peer organizations or other institutions in your community. So, I think that was one of the biggest challenges.
(06:59):
The other issue is diversity. Our community is very diverse, racially, ethnically, gender preferences. We also have many peers who have multiple disabilities, who are neurodiverse. And so, one of the issues has really been to really look out, to really extend yourself to these communities and to really make sure that the services that we provide, that the people that we hire are able to provide services to those communities.
(07:27):
And a good example of that is in New York, we’ve had an explosion of South Asians, from India and Pakistan and other South Asian countries. And so, it’s really been one of the things that peer-run organizations, in particular, and peers have to really do, and I encourage them to do is to keep their arms open wide, to be a big tent, not repeating what the Democrats say, a big tent in terms of our community, and to also integrate culturally competent ways of delivering service.
(07:56):
One size doesn’t fit all. Everyone, there are cultural beliefs, there are attitudes, there are ways of looking at, for example, in many cultures, spirituality is key to be able to talk to people in multiple ways, multiple pathways to recovery, and to really be open about ensuring that our organizations, and even as an individual, that we’re accepting and that we listen, which is really important.
(08:21):
The other thing is, and as we’re talking about listening, something brings to my mind is a concept of servant leadership. Being able to listen, to take it in, and I mean, really actively listen and to really work with community around building capacity and diversifying is really being able to be a servant leadership and not being co-opted necessarily by others, and I’ll give you an example.
(08:43):
When I was at University of Pennsylvania, I was invited to have a dinner, and this was at a time when there were issues around apartheid and divestment. And so, I was invited to have dinner with the chancellor and actually the president of university. And I can remember sitting at the table and saying, and I was the only person of color there because I had been pretty outspoken, and I’m sitting there and I’m like, I’m feeling good.
(09:05):
And I’m like, “I shouldn’t really be feeling good about this because how many more people need to be around the table? How many people need to talk about what’s going on and strategies for Penn to divest being at the table,” whether it’s at one of your state agencies or whatever, federal government or with local, it can be so seductive to be that one and only person at the table.
(09:25):
And so, I think peers, particularly peer leaders, have to resist the temptation to be co-opted in that way and to always advocate for opening doors. And I say not only opening doors, taking them out so that there are no doors, that there’s no one door through entry and really advocate for the inclusion of others, because that momentary feeling that you get sitting at the table with power, it is momentary and it is fleeting.
Livia (09:48): Oh my goodness, you shared so much. Let me just unravel a couple of threads here. One of the things you talked about in sharing that example with sitting at the table with UPenn leadership, this concept of being a leader and looking at what does that mean for you as a leader? It isn’t just about promoting yourself is what I heard you say. It’s really about how do you always create other leaders. How do you get other folks to be in the positions of power?
(10:22):
That is certainly something I think most leaders would agree on that is important to move the field forward because we also always need to think about who is coming behind us, who can continue this work, right? That’s a great example and an important thing to think about as a leader. Is there anything else you would recommend leaders think about to move the field forward?
LaVerne (10:45): One of the things about leadership is it’s not always that bright, shiny object. What I found in terms of identifying leaders and folks who are really open to servant leadership is that sometimes it can be that person that’s in the corner that’s quiet, that hasn’t felt comfortable enough to say anything. So, I think as a lawyer, we really need to reach out, not to just limit our outreach to folks who we know and who we’re comfortable with, but to other people who are really interested or have the potential to become leaders.
(11:14):
One of the most important aspects of really leadership is mentorship. We can’t be, those of us that have been doing this for a while, we can’t be afraid of being replaced or being outshined by the new generation. We have to really offer freely and willingly what we have, and mentorship is different than being a boss.
(11:37):
Mentorship is really teaching by learning, of cultivating that relationship, of being there throughout a person’s leadership trajectory, but most importantly, really role modeling styles of leadership. We, as adults, learn by seeing. You reach a certain point in your life where it’s not reading, it’s not, at least myself, it’s about seeing and really finding the proof that certain leadership styles result in good outcomes.
(12:05):
I wouldn’t just say good outcomes but are more effective. And I think we all know that when we’ve been in a meeting or we’ve been somewhere and we say, “Wow, how did this person get where they’re going? Their style is abrasive, it’s whatever.” And then, we also compare that with people that we’ve worked with or been around and their leadership style has been very effective, and we want to replicate that as best as we can.
Livia (12:26): Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. So, just exactly the type of wisdom we’re hoping to share. Let’s shift gears just a little bit here. As you think about emerging newer recovery leaders, what would you want them to know about the history of recovery? Because it is rich. We stand on the shoulders of many giants, and it can be easy to forget history. So, what would you want emerging and new recovery leaders to know?
LaVerne (12:55): Yeah, you forget your history, you don’t know where you’re going. First of all, people like Howie the Harp, Sally Zinman and others, they fought. They fought the just and righteous fight. They were loud in an effective way and that they knew that the system could and would transform with the involvement of peers.
(13:17):
It’s important to note that those folks were often chastised. They were often called crazy people. They were often stigmatized. That wasn’t a barrier for them. They moved forward. And so, they laid that fertile soil for those of us that have come after them for us to really grow. So, I think that first cadre of leaders is really important to recognize for oftentimes the sacrifices that they made.
(13:43):
A lot of peers may think that the system has always been the way that it was. Go on to a database and there are a hundred jobs for peer specialists or justice peers. There weren’t. Those jobs had to be created. We had to work with provider agencies. We had to advocate for funding. We had to meet together and share ideas and like. But I think most importantly, what it was is that folks listen to each other and that’s what I would encourage this new generation of peers to do is to listen.
(14:15):
And that’s a consistent theme that I carry throughout my work is to listen, to be creative, to be innovative and not be bitter. Many of us have had experiences, Livia, with how we’ve been treated by the system. And I can count some of my experiences were like, “If I get out of here, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I may come back.”
(14:36):
But to not let our bitterness and anger at the system, color the ways in which we’re able to collaborate and work together and to transform the system because often, that anger and bitterness clouds, what we see, it’s sort of like looking through a pinhole, it’s smaller and smaller.
(14:56):
And so, I think that’s really important to be in a place where you’re healed around your own experience so that doesn’t really impact negatively on the work that you’re doing. That is just really, really important. It’s a touchstone. We’ve all had those experiences where our treatment could have been better.
(15:12):
We should have been talked to as human beings worthy of life, worthy of living, worthy of succeeding. And we can all pinpoint that the different points in our lives where we felt lower than low, but it’s really important to come to terms with those experiences and move forward.
Livia (15:31): Reminds me also the training and certification that now happens for the peer workforce in many states and the curricula that’s been developed, a lot of that focuses also on how to share your story, right? That is just an important reminder the field of recovery certainly has recognized because it’s so central, the sharing also to the role.
LaVerne (15:55): It is, and to really understand how to share. When I first started doing this work, often people were very voyeuristic about people’s stories. And what I realized is that there are parts of your story, anyone’s story that they can tell that can and will benefit other folks, but you have to be very careful about oversharing. You don’t want to be re-traumatized by sharing.
(16:16):
So, that means being very mindful about how you’re sharing, but almost as important why you’re sharing. And I’m glad to see that a lot of this new generation of leadership, that they have really identified that as a priority because a lot of us felt like it was all coming out and nothing coming in. And it’s an art and it’s a skill and it’s something that folks really can practice.
(16:41):
And I know when I first got started, I would keep notes about red flag areas, making sure that I made the connection between some experience I had and how the system needed to be transformed. So, I would make sure to be on point to draw that nexus between the two things.
Livia (16:57): Wonderful. Thank you. So, we have a podcast series that is really focusing on young people, emerging newer recovery leaders. And I’m wondering, is there any wisdom you’d share with that audience?
LaVerne (17:12): Yeah. One of the things I would say for young audiences, number one, don’t get mad at us for not being familiar with some of the lingo and other kinds of things, and really at times, really not welcoming you at the table because we felt threatened, we felt that we’re no longer needed and the like. It’s also important for young folks to really identify their issues, to not feel like our issues are their issues.
(17:36):
So, whether it’s talking more about peer work in schools or peer work in colleges or working and embracing the transgender community, whatever it is, to make sure that they have ownership of it, not to just automatically co-sign with what’s been done in the past, because often, that’s not what’s needed at the moment.
(17:56):
The other thing that I think is important is identify role models and don’t be afraid to go up to people and say, “Listen, I’m LaVerne and I like what you said,” or “I’m LaVerne and I live in the city,” or “I’m LaVerne and I’m a lawyer, and I can’t go back to practicing law because of my illness, but how did you do it?”
(18:15):
And I can remember when I got toward mid-career, people were just not shy. I go to a conference thinking, “Okay, once the workshops are over, I’m going up to my room, whatever,” and people would just gather, “Can you tell us how to do it and what to do with it?”
(18:32):
A colleague of mine, Brandee Izquierdo, who currently works with the Pew Foundation is a great example. Brandee at every conference she would corner me and talk, “Tell me how to do this, how to do that.” Helen Skipper is another one who I’ve worked with, “How do you do this LaVerne?” And so, I think it’s really important for people not to be shy, not to be reticent and don’t feel bad about what you don’t know because you know what? There was a time when we didn’t know what we didn’t know.
(18:56):
And so, it’s really important to identify those leaders and also that those leaders are going to be consistent and available for you. And I think that’s really important, and don’t shy away. Don’t shy away from leadership roles and organizations just because you’re “young.”
Livia (19:13): Well, LaVerne, I just want to honor you for all the mentorship that you have obviously provided to others. And I wouldn’t be surprised if people reach out to you after this podcast, after listening to you. My goodness. Yes, you’ve had a lasting impact.
LaVerne (19:27): Oh, thank you.
Livia (19:28): Oh, you are welcome.
LaVerne (19:29): Thanks.
Livia (19:29): And I know I’ve certainly learned a lot from you. So, to wrap up our time together, given all that you have been involved with in the last 30 years and all you’ve done, what keeps you going?
LaVerne (19:42): What keeps me going is knowing that recovery is real and knowing that mental illness is not a lifetime sentence of death or dying. It’s something that we deal with, and we are able to live life to the fullest. So, the one thing is that to really appreciate the value that peers have in transforming the system. I’ve often thought about, do you deconstruct the entire system? Do you take some of it away? Do you put some of it back or whatever?
(20:17):
So, the one thing I’ve learned is that some of it does have to be deconstructed. I can think of a few expressions I could use, but I won’t use them now, but you cannot build something strong on weak sand. There’s a black spiritual “on solid ground I stand”. And so, it’s really important to be very open, to be mindful about what you’re getting involved with.
(20:37):
And again, I’d like to reiterate your skills are needed. I had to learn from a young person how to really utilize media because I’m 65 and I get all overwhelmed organizing a Zoom meeting but also share your stories with us and to be always open to collaborating.
(20:56):
And if you’re in an organization that’s really not meeting your needs, that’s really focusing on issues and challenges that are not your priorities, by all means to speak up and speak loudly and speak clearly. Don’t sit silently or just walk away and say, “This isn’t for me.” We all have the capacity to change.
Livia (21:14): Yes. And on that note, LaVerne, thank you so much for joining us today.
LaVerne (21:21): You’re welcome and take care. Be well. Keep doing the good work, Livia. I hope this podcast is helpful. If it reaches one or two people who want to think about it, I’d be happy. So, take care and be well.
Livia (21:33): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Lee Locke-Hardy (Producer) (21:38): Visit C4innovates.com and follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Lee Locke-Hardy and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Listen to other episodes in the “Learning from Recovery Elders” series.