An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
“Clinicians…would learn EMDR, but they didn’t know how to necessarily do it…there was a need for the how. So, the EMDR is the what you do, and the MI is the how you do it.”
Expert Trainer Larisa Traga joins host Ali Hall to explore Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) and how it blends with other evidence-based practices like Motivational Interviewing (MI).
June 22, 2026
[Music]
Ali Hall (Host) (00:07):
Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host today, Ali Hall, joining you from San Francisco, California. Our topic is MI and EMDR. My guest today is Larisa Traga, a member of the MINT or Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers, a MINT certified trainer, an EMDRIA certified trainer and LCSW, calling in today from Santa Maria, California. Thanks, Larissa, for joining us today.
Larisa Traga (Guest) (00:34):
Thanks for having me, Ali. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you.
Ali (00:38):
Yeah. Yeah, really appreciate you joining on. And I’m just curious, we’ve thrown around a lot of acronyms already today. MI is one, Motivational Interviewing, that our guests are always experts in plus some other stuff and probably our listeners are familiar with MI and that may have been what drew them to us in the first place. The other thing though we’ve been talking about is EMDR. So, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that.
Larisa (Guest) (01:01):
Yeah. So EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization Reprocessing, kind of a long word for basically a neurological approach to helping people move beyond some of the experiences maybe they’ve had in their past or present that are holding them back. And it involves bilateral stimulation where we basically stimulate both sides of the brain and taxing the working memory to help them really reduce their vividness of the events and the emotional charge around it so that it doesn’t have the hold on them that maybe it has up until now.
Ali (01:43):
Yeah, that’s really helpful. And I think what is one characteristic those we serve have in common and it has been said trauma, trauma and trauma. For you, what was your personal journey to EMDR though? What drew you to this?
Larisa (01:56):
Yeah. Well, so thinking back, I was always intrigued by it when I first heard about it in grad school, but at that time it wasn’t something that was popular. There was a lot of looking down at it, but it was intriguing to me. And when I saw Bessel van der Kolk at a conference compare EMDR to CBT, which is what I was using at that time, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and looking at post-treatment, how those who received EMDR continued to get better and those who received CBT started to have a little bit of a relapse in their symptoms. For me, that was what I needed to hear to really know that this is going to be something I want to learn about. And I happened to be in the right place at the right time. And we had Roy Kiessling come out in 2014 to Santa Maria, which is a really small-ish town and he did a training for about 12 of us and I was one of the people that got trained and fell in love with it right away and knew that this was something that I wanted to specialize in.
Ali (03:06):
Yeah, it’s fantastic. Things that are often stigmatized or looked down upon for whatever reason are born out to be true and you were excited and passionate about it and seems like everything sort of fell in place for you.
Larisa (03:20):
Absolutely. Yeah. And I also had my own experience with EMDR, which I would say changed my life in a lot of ways. I had a real big fear of public speaking. I don’t know if you knew that about me and I got to process that during the training and it really helped me get beyond that because as you know, I’m doing a lot of trainings now.
Ali (03:44):
Yeah, you really are. And I did not know that. And I don’t think anyone who’s ever met you or certainly no one who’s ever taken a workshop from you or with you would have ever guessed that for sure. Yeah, points to the profound transformations that people can work themselves and live themselves and journey through. Deep stuff, and like you say, CBT helps to some extent, but then the benefits may filter off. Whereas this kind of profound shift that you’re talking about people are making that’s not only more lasting but deeper.
(04:15):
So often we think about blending motivational interviewing with other evidence-based practices. And in fact, research tells us that sometimes that accelerates or amplifies the effects of MI and/or the other EBP (Evidence-Based Practices). So good things often happen when we blend. But in particular, why MI and EMDR? What specifically about this is so powerful?
Larisa (04:38):
Well, so the idea was born out of seeing this challenge that clinicians had when they would learn EMDR, but they didn’t know how to necessarily do it. And so, what I noticed is that there was a need for the how. So, the EMDR is the what you do, and the MI is the how you do it. In particular, I think it’s important with EMDR because there’s a lot of potential for emotional release and it’s kind of a vulnerable process and trust and rapport is critical to the foundations. And in MI, the spirit of MI is critical to everything else you do. And so that’s kind of where it was born out of for me.
Ali (05:26):
How to actually talk with people while you’re doing the something with them, right?
Larisa (05:31):
Yes. And also, the other piece is that a lot of clients when they come into therapy, even if they want to do EMDR, they have some history of trauma, they tend to avoid it a little bit and there’s a little bit of a reluctance to getting into it. And so that’s another place where I feel MI really is helpful in setting up and preparing to work through the ambivalence that they might have about doing it despite the fact that they want to, but there’s a little bit of fear. And so, using MI to help them work through the fears and ambivalence about doing it.
Ali (06:09):
Yeah. It really makes sense. An analogy might be blending MI and Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) that we sort of modulate the relentless push towards change, understanding that people have a lot of reluctance and ambivalence does play a part and helping people learn to do something or learn to acquire skills, there’s often a foundational discomfort or fear around even that. So, it’s sort of like not necessarily cart before horse, but MI kind of arrives first maybe and is the glue that holds everything together throughout. We think of the tasks of MI as well and unless we can engage successfully with someone and find a shared focus, then acquiring new skills or even willingness to practice wouldn’t make a whole lot of sense.
Larisa (06:54):
Yes. It’s interesting that you say that because in EMDR we have three stages and eight phases. And in my training, the heaviest focus of the integration of MI and EMDR is in phase one and two, which is kind of preparation towards the processing and then towards the end in phase eight when you’re trying to do integration and reevaluation and kind of adding in other modalities to support the shifts that occur during the processing phases.
Ali (07:30):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know that we can’t really actually do a session here, but in general, what would an MI and EMDR blended session sound like?
Larisa (07:43):
Yeah. Well, I would say if we were, for instance, to take phase two where we’re preparing the client for EMDR and we’re teaching them different skills and different resources. So, this is where I would say besides the spirit, which is critical, showing up with partnership, acceptance, compassion, and empowerment, which I think is something we do really every session, the AOA, the Ask- Offer-Ask is a really, I would say very helpful here. So, before I teach people anything in terms of resources and tools, I will ask them, “What tools do you already have? What coping skills do you already use in your day-to-day?” I don’t assume to know what they do and don’t do.
(08:31):
And once you find out, then you kind of gauge, okay, how much preparation do we need to do? Because if they already have a bunch of tools and skills, then we could just strengthen those using slow bilateral stimulation, which is one way that we strengthen connections and then giving them, let’s say, a container or a peaceful place, which are two very common resources that we create with clients and then following up after you offer or teach them something, you follow up with the “A” of how was that for you? How might you use it? And then I’m also kind of doing a little bit of planning of in between sessions, when can you use it, what might get in the way, how are you going to get around that? So, I find for me, the AOA is really critical in that preparation phases leading up to EMDR so that the person feels like the approach is individualized and that I’m not making any assumptions about them before I prepare them for EMDR. That’s just one small example of that.
Ali (09:39):
Yeah. And a really powerful one too. And to think about the way those two things kind of flex together around that Ask-Offer-Ask, and pivot point and a shout-out too to Ask-Offer-Ask or exchanging information in a collaborative and autonomy supportive way, being one of those eight effective helper strategies that Miller and Moyers wrote about that are common to anything that works and vitally central and as well as a provider, things that we can get better at, things we need to have in place for ourselves that actually make everything work. We can see how we’re doing with it and actually get better at those things. So, I’m glad to hear you making such great use of that ask, offer, ask, and that absolutely is a good overlap between the two.
Larisa (10:25):
And I would also just say just the OARS, right? I think the OARS are also super critical because what clinicians tend to do as you know, is ask mostly questions and most of those are closed-ended questions, which can be a little bit jarring to their nervous system. It’s like this, you need to perform and you have to answer. It’s not as comfortable to them when we ask them mostly closed-ended questions. I feel like the OARS and that idea of at least one reflection for every question, mostly open questions, using affirmations and summaries in a strategic way, I feel also really supports creating that safety for them and the space to be able to allow themselves to be more vulnerable.
(11:17):
I feel like that’s another area where MI is really critical in using some of these trauma-informed approaches and of course MI being one of them. So, I feel like it just really blends so beautifully together.
Ali (11:34):
Yeah. So, the skillful use of OARS is going to be helpful clearly with MI, but also with EMDR, I’m imagining questions in and of themselves generally have a demand quality to them and can really put people under a microscope, particularly if they’re extractive or history or fact gathering type of orientation in nature. But even some good open questions can feel intrusive for folks but really blending and making sure we’re using reflective listening to help a person feel heard and understood and sprinkling affirmation and appreciation for the person we’re serving. That sounds like really powerful. It also sounds like they blend and complement one another the models in that this is about change and growth and it’s about strengthening something that is already good inside people rather than trying to give people something that we think that they want to have.
Larisa (12:27):
Yes. So, both approaches are very client-centered and strength-based because in EMDR, the AIP, which is the Adaptive Information Processing says that we already have everything we need to heal. All we need to do as clinicians is create a safe place and a secure space for the nervous system to allow itself to do what it needs to do and the AIP to get them to where they want to go, which is a place of healing and letting go of some of the things that maybe they’ve been holding onto in their body and in their system for as long as they have.
Ali (13:08):
What a profound way to listen together with someone and doing helpful things for that safe, welcoming atmosphere and also some things that like as with MI that we don’t do, like conversation roadblocks, getting out of the way is also helpful too it seems.
Larisa (13:24):
Oh, absolutely. And making sure that you are showing up with PACE and the spirit (of MI) because everything you do within EMDR can be a vulnerable process. And so, we want to be helping the person and their nervous system feel seen and feel heard. And I feel like the best way to do that is by showing up with Motivational Interviewing. I really don’t know any other way that you could do that.
Ali (13:54):
Showing up and really believing in the person and the existing empowerment that they are already carrying, working with them in partnership from a position of acceptance and compassion by prioritizing the person’s needs and wishes and aims for themselves with benevolence. It sounds like too, then we’re moving towards not only preparing to acquire skills or to refresh skills or refine skills, but also towards planning. And it seems like these are really good companions on this change journey.
Larisa (14:24):
Yeah, absolutely. Even for example, if you’re working with co-occurring disorders, you’re helping someone get beyond their, let’s say, negative belief of, “I’m defective, or there’s something wrong with me,” which is a common belief that individuals who have co-occurring disorders carry with them. And once you help them beyond that belief, then you could bring in MI to help them with the actual changes that they can make now that this belief doesn’t have that hold on them and they’re feeling more, let’s say, “I’m okay as I am, or I can accept myself regardless.” So that’s another area that I feel like MI is a good fit because it’s not enough just to have a shift in your nervous system. Now you have to get support to implement the changes you want to make. And that’s where MI comes in really strongly for me, which is in phase eight when we follow up post the processing session with a client.
Ali (15:26):
Well, Larissa, I know you’re really busy, I’m grateful that you could take the time here with us today, but because you’re so busy, what’s coming up for you next?
Larisa (15:37):
Well, thank you. So, I actually am presenting at this year’s EMDRIA conference on this topic, so I’m really excited about being able to do that. And then I’m doing another two-day training, which is an advanced EMDRIA approved course on this topic as well later on this year. So, lots coming up.
Ali (16:00):
Well, and that was going to be my next question is generally if someone is interested in learning more or receiving training, how would they go about doing that?
Larisa (16:07):
Well, I’m kind of all over social media. I’m on LinkedIn as Larisa Traga. I’m also on Instagram, Empower_TCT. And then I have my website, which is www.empowertct.com, stands for training, consulting and therapy. And I’m also on Facebook. So, people can find me.
Ali (16:32):
Definitely. And I’m glad they can. It’s so incredibly helpful and it’s a unique skillset as well. But Larisa, thank you so much for joining us today.
Larisa (16:41):
Thank you, Ali. Well, I couldn’t have done it without you as you know.
Ali (16:45):
Well, I’m glad that we’re in this journey together and thank you, Larisa, for all you do, making the world a better place.
Larisa (16:52):
Thank you, Ali. It’s been a pleasure as always.
Lee (Producer) (16:55):
And to our listeners, please join us next time on Changing the Conversation. Visit C4innovates.com and follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Lee Locke-Hardy and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Listen to other episodes in our Motivational Interviewing podcast series.