An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
“I think awe invites us to hold both and builds capacity to be able to hold both the real pain and tragedy of existence along with the astounding courage and miracles really all around us.”
Motivational Interviewing trainers Carol DeFrancesco and Amy Shanahan are back with host Ali Hall for part two of their series on Awe and how the practice connects to MI.
October 26, 2026
[Music]
Ali Hall (Host)(00:06):
Greetings and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Ali Hall, and I’m joining you from San Francisco, California. We have part two with our guests, Amy and Carol. In our last episode, we talked about awe and the different categories of awe, how it affects our states of being and consciousness, what the science says, and also some ideas about how to start or expand practice of awe. So, if you haven’t heard that one, I just don’t think you’ll want to miss it. But here we are now to talk specifically about the connection between awe and motivational interviewing. And one of the things we’re going to address here is that it’s not always all about nature walks. Don’t want to have anyone think that awe is only about some kind of experience that may feel privileged, but actually in human conversations, there might be kind of a lot of awe going on, particularly in change and transformation. So, we’re going to jump into all of that today and welcome back Amy and Carol.
Carol DeFrancesco (Guest) (01:10):
Thanks for having us.
Amy Shanahan (Guest) (01:11):
Appreciate the invite.
Ali (01:13):
Well, what about MI in awe? Whether folks are listening to this as MI practitioners or trainers of MI or trainers of person-centered practices generally, what’s the relationship of awe in motivational conversation?
Carol (01:29):
For me where it started, part of what I do is research and we were researching mindfulness and I stumbled upon awe, the newer science of awe, and it connects to the spirit of motivational interviewing is the connection I made. And for me, the spirit of motivational interviewing in some ways is so aspirational, unconditional positive regard, compassion, acceptance, really seeing people’s strengths. Sometimes I pull that off and sometimes I don’t. And so, there’s always this like, gosh, how can I be the spirit of MI more and more every day, every moment in the world, especially when it’s hard? An awe primed state, having a practice of awe naturally helps me do that. I don’t have to coach myself into, “Be more compassionate, Carol, or be more connected or see somebody’s strengths.” And awe practice in the background as a foundation for me sets me up to see somebody’s strengths and be more connected and be less controlling. And that is really, really inviting to me. It’s just something I want in my life.
Ali (02:45):
So, it really might be sort of a gateway or parallel or path into and from my spirit, this awe piece. Amy, what has it been for you?
Amy (02:54):
I think the big thing; I’m going to pick one because there’s so many. The big thing for me, because my passion is around being curious and I realize that that’s part of the spirit. And I think you mentioned it, Carol, that there’s times if I’m being judgmental or if I think things have to fit in a certain rigid process or way to do things, that gets in my way of being flexible and being curious. And when you tell your stories, and we heard a story last week, I wish, Carol, you were there, the person was talking about an experience. She wasn’t talking about awe, and she got really curious and she was wondering and exploring and almost like you could tell she was not even within her own ego, her own self. So, for me as a practitioner of motivational interviewing, it’s been hard for me with the clutter of wanting to do it right or wanting to get it right and not having to worry about that anymore, that I’m just here, I’m present and I’m curious. So that’s a long answer to one thing.
Ali (04:02):
Yeah, there’s just so much. And speaking of the rigid or perfectionist tendencies or the loud inner critic that we might have or the pressures that we’re feeling to shift or change or fix or make things better for others, in MI, we talk a lot about the fixing reflex, which can also lead to compassion fatigue. So how would awe positively impact providers and trainers who are really feeling the drain or the pull of the fixing reflex or compassion fatigue?
Carol (04:32):
Well, it makes you less inclined to feel like you need to control and fix. And again, just naturally, I mean as motivational interviewing practitioners and trainers, that’s part of our instruction. And when we practice awe daily, we’re naturally less interested in controlling. We’re just more connected and curious. And so, in some ways we really do get out of our way. And because awe helps us soften this inward focus that we have and helps us expand and look outward, it naturally helps us connect to the person right in front of us. Not only that, we’re not as worried about time when we’re awe primed, when we have an awe practice. Time is like, “Oh, there’s enough.” As opposed to, “Oh, I’ve got to rush through this and I’ve got to get this all done.”
(05:24):
That more tight, rigid, controlling mindset, which, of course, as human beings, we do have to get things done. So not making that wrong but having that expansive curiosity when you’re sitting with somebody and really having the ability to not think about yourself and what you’re going to say next, but open to whatever happens in the conversation is so MI consistent. It’s where we want to be.
Amy (05:52):
The only thing I want to add to that is the practical piece of practicing awe is some things that I do and teach as well when I train people in motivational interviewing because sometimes our helping heart, our fixing reflex doesn’t go away, but in just inviting people to take that pause and breathe. So, it’s almost synonymous with that where they get to practice pausing and waiting in a sense, they can be practicing awe at the same time.
Ali (06:25):
Yeah, that’s fantastic. So, it’s not like practicing awe puts more time on the clock for us or somehow makes our sessions magically able to be a lot longer with folks, but it sounds like it gives us a feeling of time affluence rather than scarcity. And when we can operate from a position of openness and ease and expansiveness, that kind of thing like if you’re in a rush, everything goes wrong, but if you approach situations with patience and presence, five minutes you can do a lot of good actually. And it also sounds like a sense of humility that comes from right-sizing what I can do and what I can’t and having a sense of faith and optimism and hope for the other person in their capacities and empowerment. They have what it takes, and part of my role is to help them find it. And I think that we micromanage less in our conversations. I know you both have hundreds of these, but maybe you could just pick an example of where practicing awe shifted your focus either in a workshop or in a conversation with someone you were serving.
Carol (07:29):
I had sort of this triple experience of awe. I was working with a patient in the hospital, inviting them to research that was supporting recovery from substance use. And because of motivational interviewing, I walked into the hospital room and asked, “What do you already know about our research?” And the person said, “Oh, not that much.” And I said, “Well, tell me what you do know.” Again, following the invitational approach of motivational interviewing. And they went on to say quite a bit, and I affirmed what they knew. And then they expanded and they said, “When I’ve done things like this in the past, I’ve felt more,” I’m going to tear up just telling the story because it’s so moving to me. “I have felt more connected to this larger whole, like I’m contributing to society.” And then this person talked about being on the edge of suicidal ideation and how important it was for them to join this project.
(08:29):
And they were looking out the hospital window, and I could just look into their eyes because it wasn’t weird. They weren’t looking at me. I could just be really present to them. I walked back to my office after that, honestly, in awe of the person and what they were both navigating and overcoming, just tremendous courage and resilience. And then I was also in awe of motivational interviewing for this approach that invites me honestly, to shut up and just invite to what do you already know and affirm the things that people do know and give people an opportunity to connect the dots and really get out of the way. So, it was like all this awe compounding. Again, it’s hard to put into words and that’s one of the features of awe. It’s hard to describe, but I just felt so lucky to be part of that.
Ali (09:29):
Yeah. Thank you for that, Carol. And Amy, you’ve probably got one out of hundreds you could share with us.
Amy (09:36):
It is hard to pick, but I’ll take a more recent one and from a different perspective of working with a healthcare provider, I’ll leave it general, who practiced a session with me. And she had a lot of questions that she asked in her practice, and she had a lot of questions for me about, “Well, what did I do right? What did I do wrong? What should I do differently?” And she was really curious and really interested in practicing motivational interviewing. And like we do, I listened and reflected some things back. What did she notice when she was paying attention to the person she was listening to? How did they respond when she felt like it was going well? So instead of focusing on her question of what did she do wrong, and that was it. And from that moment on, she kept answering her questions and she says, “I understand this a lot more than I thought.” And really summarized her practice and what she could do differently, and I didn’t even have to answer her question.
(10:38):
And that’s the beauty of it because she was asking for critical feedback, which I’m happy to give if they really want it in that moment. And it didn’t take too long for her to answer her own question. So, it’s that curiosity again, pausing that reflex to want to answer her question and being able to honor that she has a lot of knowledge and experience already without me saying anything. And to me, I was feeling awe in that moment as well. I think it’s a mutual exchange like, “Wow, that’s really cool.”
Ali (11:10):
Yeah, that’s beautiful, Amy, and really trusting that people do have what it takes and in talking with them in this way, we can help them bring that forward for themselves so that they have more experiences of moving together with the person they’re serving in a really powerful way. So, helping them access their own awe as well, it sounds like. My guess too, if I had hundreds, I’m going to have to say some of my most powerful experiences of awe have really been observing or witnessing a moral good or something really powerful about another person with regard to compassion and kindness and benevolence.
(11:45):
Many of my awe experiences that I’ve had in working with folks either in training or in direct service is really about folks who overcome the most impossible of obstacles and the strength and the skills and the values and the resilience that they are able to access inside, whether those are extraordinarily oppressive circumstances, impossible health or living conditions that people are carrying, but people are able to access these things and make these profound and highly improbable kinds of transformations in their lives. And when we think about inviting those we serve or training participants of ours, how do we help them access their own senses of wonder? What would you say about that?
Carol (12:29):
Yeah, that’s a good question. I teach a 12-week graduate level course in motivational interviewing, and this year I’m thinking, “Okay, I’m going to put my money where my mouth is and actually build into the course a parallel awe curriculum.” Because I am convinced that awe supports the spirit of motivational interviewing, and that’s one of those things that’s hard to teach. We can teach open-ended questions in a pretty straightforward way. An awe primed foundation is almost like a practice of meditative mindfulness. You don’t know if that anything’s happening until a year later you look back and you go, “Oh, I’m less reactive when whatever happens.” So, I’m actually going to build in a parallel awe curriculum and invite people to do awe walks and invite them to pair up and share and draw their awe experience. I’m sure my students will have some skepticism around this, like how does this fit? But invite them to be open-mindedly skeptical and see how it supports their goals of connecting and being open to a conversation that’s unfolding and seeing strengths in other people.
Ali (13:41):
So not necessarily formulaic, but that sounds like something that you’re helping people do and that is absolutely something that others can turn around and help their workshop participants or the clients that they serve do as well. What about you, Amy?
Amy (13:53):
Well, I was thinking of one of our colleagues who took our awe workshop and went right back to work and actually invited her client to practice it and told them about it because it doesn’t take much to tell people what to do. I organically did a workshop, organically introduced awe when we were talking about the spirit of MI. I don’t know, something moved me and I started talking about it. I didn’t write it in the curriculum. And when we were talking about how do we accept people who are different from us or who we disagree with or who we have maybe some negative energy around, and I don’t know, something compelled me to just start talking about awe and I didn’t spend a lot of time. It was really about that pause and that breathing and reminding ourselves that we came from maybe a place of difficulty or they’re coming from a place of difficulty and how do you suspend your own judgment about that and be curious about it?
(14:50):
And we just talked about it. I thought they were really interesting, because the spirit can get pretty deep and psychological when we talk about it and teach it. And I think in the workshops, a lot of folks want to know how. I don’t want to know what it is, I want to know how to do it. And I thought awe fit really nicely there and in this moment it worked out, so I might make it more part of the curriculum.
Ali (15:13):
Yeah, excellent. So, you might find ways to wiggle some of it in, but you also might be a little bit more strategic about looking for those opportunities, but it sounds like you use that spontaneously as a really neat way to bring that forward. The being part of MI spirit, what could possibly be wrong with partnership and acceptance and compassion and empowerment? I mean, everybody gets that, but then how do you do it? What does the how look like? How do you convey it? How to be skillful at conveying it without getting all bound up into skills or strategies or things like that, but how can you show people that this is the way that you’re viewing them and your intent, your heart set and mindset to work together with them? I think for me, I’m wiggling in a little bit of awe through the acceptance piece in particular. That feels like a logical doorway for spirit to invite people to be more affirming or take an affirming stance and to actively be on a treasure hunt rather than deficit detectives to support autonomy. Carol, what are you thinking?
Carol (16:07):
I’m remembering when Amy and I did our workshop in Minneapolis for the Motivational Interviewing Forum, and Bill Miller is in the room and he talked about reading Carl Rogers’ book, A Way of Being. And he said when he first described that book, he wept. Those were his words, he wept. And so right there, that’s a sign of awe to be in the presence of this manuscript. And what we know about awe is that it does change our state of being. It is a transcendent state, so it’s considered an altered state of consciousness. And so, when we reflect on Bill’s instruction to us to allow motivational interviewing to become a way of being, and how do you pull that off? How do you shift your way of being when you’re walking into a room with somebody? I think awe experiences and a practice has something to teach us there.
Ali (17:07):
Absolutely. And I’m recalling that moment in your workshop. As we’re closing our episode and we could clearly have so many follow-ups, last but not least, why does awe feel even more important than ever?
Carol (17:21):
We’re bombarded with really good reasons to despair, and I think it’s important to really look at awe as it’s not ignoring those reasons to despair. It’s not just simply turning our head away and smelling the roses and everything’s great because things are honestly crumbling in a lot of ways. And it’s also true that there is still beauty and courage and overcoming and grandeur that is beyond description. And so, I think awe invites us to hold both and builds capacity to be able to hold both the real pain and tragedy of existence along with the astounding courage and miracles really all around us. So, to me, it feels like it’s a real both/and is how do we hold both and keep going and continue to do the good work that we can do?
Amy (18:26):
How do you outdo that? I just think about hope. I think about softening our ego and certainty about being right in a society that’s now very polarized and dominated by a lot of anxiety and urgency to act. It can awaken all of us to be connected and empathic with each other, even through our differences. And it’s really all about that shared sense of we’re together, whether we agree with each other or not, we’re in this world together. So that’s what comes to my mind about why it’s really important for us to be more open and curious and empathic towards each other.
Ali (19:09):
Yeah. Well, thank you both for that. And we’re often serving folks, and we know that our workshop participants are serving folks who might be meeting us at the most difficult chapter or moment of their lives, and it’s not the whole story for them. Whatever movement or changes or transformations or growth and flourishing we’re able to connect to is in the context of all of this. So that goes to acceptance for me as well of the lived reality and the willingness of this person to share their healing journey. We’re all in this together and ideally we’re all supporting each other with hope and gratitude and mindfulness and optimism and true presence. Thank you both so much, Carol and Amy, for joining us on Changing the Conversation. We might petition for more of these because we could just keep talking about awe. It’s been a lovely time spending with both of you and thank you both very much.
Carol (20:00):
Absolutely. Thanks. Thanks so much.
Amy (20:02):
Thanks for having us, and I’d be happy to talk with you all about this all day long.
Ali (20:07):
Thanks, Carol and Amy, and thank you to our listeners for joining us on Changing the Conversation, and we’ll see you next time.
Lee Locke-Hardy (Producer) (20:15):
Visit c4innovates.com and follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Lee Locke-Hardy and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.