An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
Gina Albano and Kiya Kennebrew share strategies for supporting students thru restorative practices with host Dwayne Watkins.
December 9, 2024
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Dwayne Watkins, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host for today’s episode, Dwayne Watkins, the health equity manager here at C4 Innovations Center on Health Equity. And today we’re delving into restorative practices in schools. Now, today I have the pleasure of being joined by two special guests, Gina Albano, who is a lead youth wellness coach at C4 Innovations, who is stationed in different public schools across the state of Massachusetts. And Gina is calling in from Haverhill, Massachusetts. Hi, Gina. How are you today?
Gina Albano, Guest (00:38): I’m good. Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited.
Dwayne (00:41): Thank you for being here. Then I have the equally lovely Kiya Kennebrew who is the community-based senior program manager for the Center for Youth Well-being at C4 Innovations. Now, Kiya is calling in from Waterbury, Connecticut today. Kiya, how are you doing today?
Kiya Kennebrew, Guest (00:58): I am well, super thrilled to be in community with you today. Thank you for having me.
Dwayne (01:03): Thank you for being here, and it is always a pleasure being in community with you as well, Kiya. Now, both Gina and Kiya are seasoned on this topic, and we’ll unpack today what restorative practices mean, their connection to the school-to-prison pipeline and why this approach matters in fostering equitable and supportive educational environments. As a lead youth wellness coach, Gina, what exactly is your role inside of the schools?
Gina (01:30): My role consists of a non-clinical peer support for youth in public schools that need any extra support, whether that be mental health, substance use, family conflict, peer issues. I cover a wide range of things, but just being there as someone who doesn’t specifically work for their school, that they don’t have to worry about getting in trouble and as someone to talk with them about things they’re going through within their high school experience.
Dwayne (02:01): Now, Gina and Kiya, let’s get into it. What are restorative practices and how do they differ from restorative justice? Kiya?
Kiya (02:10): Restorative justice is a subset of restorative practices. Restorative justice is an indigenous practice, so that’s really where its roots are based and in the US is heavily tied to our justice system, hence the restorative justice piece. We also started to hear a lot about restorative justice post-Apartheid. In South Africa there was the Trust and Reconciliation Act, and so after Apartheid they were trying to really find ways to address the harm that was done in the country. And so, restorative justice was a model of, essentially, effective conflict resolution. And so, you started to see them use these practices to try to restore the relationships between a lot of the communities in South Africa.
(02:59):
And then in the US, we use restorative practices because you start to see them in the health system, the school system, a lot of systems that we’re using where harm was done. We really incorporate these practices to try to address harm. It’s really about repairing harm caused by an offender. And that term, again, is because it really was rooted in the justice system and it focuses on bringing victims, the community members and the offenders together to address whatever issue happened. Restorative practices are really about building relationship, addressing conflict, repairing harm, and then having a system in place to really make sure that if harm is done, we have a system in place to address it. Everyone is a part of that conversation. And then we have some tools to be able to properly navigate when a situation arises.
Dwayne (03:56): Thank you, Kiya. I love that. I haven’t really thought about it from that perspective where restorative practices are those proactive approaches to building relationships in communities, essentially, especially within schools, while that restorative justice is more so focusing on responding to the harm after it’s happened. So, it’s not just about resolving that conflict but creating a culture that minimizes conflict essentially. Gina, would you like to add anything to that?
Gina (04:25): Yeah, and Kiya broke it down so wonderfully, I think it’s really helpful to look at it that way because sometimes these concepts can be really large and feel really systematic and it can be hard to think, “Okay, individually on a day-to-day basis, how can I approach this?” And so, wording it in as far as practices go, I think helps understand the individual way that you can take action to address the larger systematic issues.
Dwayne (04:53): Yes, we all love when we break down these large concepts into something that is more palatable. Now, what would be some of the core principles of this model or of this practice? Kiya?
Kiya (05:05): If you’re talking to different practitioners, you might get a different response, but I think generally when we’re talking about the core elements of restorative practices, we’re looking at acknowledge, repair, and then transform. So, what does that mean? We want to acknowledge when something is done. If someone harms someone in a community, the first step is folks have to acknowledge that there was harm done and that responsibility is on the offender. So someone, if you cause harm, you say, “I’m sorry. I’m acknowledging that I did something wrong.”
(05:40):
And then the next core principle is repair. What are we going to do to make it better? And so, a big piece of repair, when we’re talking about restorative practices, is again around making sure that the person who was impacted is a part of the conversation of repair. Because oftentimes in communities, that person who’s offended, they’re deciding what the repair looks like, and that’s not what true restoration of a community looks like. So, all of the people involved have to be a part of that decision making, although the responsibility is on the person who offended.
(06:16):
And then when we get to transform, this is about really changing relationships. If you have someone that you’ve built a relationship with, you have some tools in place for how you address harm, you’re more likely to be able to really address situations as they arrive when you have these tools in place, versus having a community where there’s nothing in place that happens when harm is done, although we know it’s going to happen. We can’t really get to the repair and transform because usually folks are not acknowledging when harm is done if they don’t have these tools in a community to be able to have these conversations. So, we’re acknowledging harm, we’re collaboratively discussing what that repair process looks like, and then we’re transforming the relationship by using these tools when we have harm to be able to address them and have better communication, better relationships in place when things happen in communities.
Dwayne (07:10): Thank you, Kiya. What does a restorative conversation look like?
Kiya (07:15): There can be different examples of that. There can be one-to-one restorative conversations, but usually you want to bring someone who was offended and someone who was harmed in a space together. So, like a student with another student, if something was peer-to-peer. You can bring a teacher with a student in a space to have those conversations, a teacher with an admin, a teacher with the student. So, I think there’s so many relationships and different folks in a school space that restorative conversations can happen at different levels with different people in the room.
Dwayne (07:54): Gina, along those same lines, how easy or difficult do you find implementing these core principles at some of the schools in which you are working in?
Gina (08:05): Well, I think it is pretty difficult because it’s sort of the opposite of, I feel, what happens in schools now. Oftentimes suspension is used as a replacement to that accountability part. And I think, like Kiya mentioned, being part of that conversation, even if you are the person that caused harm, is one of the most important parts. And oftentimes in schools the goal of suspension is to remove the student from the situation instead of really addressing it. So, I think it’s a challenge just because that’s not what we’re used to, but I think it is very doable. I think students are very capable of being part of that conversation. They’re often not given the credit that they’re capable of that, but they really are. They’re not only capable of explaining why the situation happened, but they’re capable of taking responsibility for when they have caused harm.
(09:04):
And so, allowing them that space is something that is really beneficial. Not only so they can take accountability, but also administrators or other students or security guards can take accountability for maybe the harm that they have caused in the situation as well. So, it’s a tricky thing only because it’s something that I think isn’t something we’re used to, but I think when we start implementing things like this that give the student an opportunity to be part of the conversation and what that process looks like, I think we’d be very surprised that our ability to transform and allow students’ growth in environments like that.
Dwayne (09:44): Gina, you made so many good points and I think that this will be a great time for us to shift the conversation around those punitive reactions versus accountability. So, let’s discuss the punitive reactions like suspension versus accountability. What’s the difference in their impact on students?
Gina (10:06): Yeah, that’s a great question and I think a really important one, because I think in restorative practices accountability really, as Kiya laid out, is that first step if we are going to repair a situation where there’s been harm caused. So, yeah, allowing the student to take accountability is instrumental in how the situation plays out. Suspension, what it does is it takes away from that whole process because when you remove the accountability part, the repair and transform part can’t really take place. I think oftentimes suspension is used as a way to not really deal with the problem. I think moving towards allowing a conversation to happen is something that, I think, would be really beneficial.
(11:00):
When I talk to these students, I’m always really surprised by how easily they take accountability in spaces that are non-judgmental, in spaces where they don’t have to worry about getting in trouble. They’re very receptive to looking at their own actions and how they’ve caused harm. And oftentimes it’s not something they wanted to do, but because of the other layers of harm that have happened in a bigger picture, is something that they’ve resorted to. So, it’s a much bigger picture. And when you talk to the student and include them in that conversation, instead of just suspending them, there’s a lot of benefit that can happen all around.
Dwayne (11:38): Thank you. It seems like suspensions are often weaponized, used as a quick fix without really addressing the underlying issues, and they begin to isolate those students and disrupt their education, which we know can exacerbate behavioral changes. Would you agree, Kiya, that accountability involves more than just helping the student understand the impact of their actions, but also for administrators as they address the students in their actions as well?
Kiya (12:11): Absolutely. And I want to use an example. Many, many years ago, not that many, but many years ago, I used to teach restorative justice flavored work, but really I was a social justice educator and then I did some college access work at a high school in Brooklyn. And we used to sit in an office with some of the paraprofessionals that worked in the school, as well as an organization that was doing the restoration work. They were doing circle keeping. And so, we all were in the same space. I remember it was this one young lady that used to come to this space often really upset. Attitudes, at least a couple of times a week she was really upset. So, I used to ask her, “What’s going on?” And she was really frustrated that every time she was passionate or had an opinion, she was deemed as aggressive.
(13:04):
And anytime she was deemed as aggressive with having an opinion or not agreeing with a teacher or agreeing with admin, she would get threatened with suspension. And if she had a rebuttal, they would bring up the SROs, which are the resource officers, these are the police officers in the school, and she would get really frustrated, which means her voice would be elevated. We started to have a conversation with the school staff around the policing of tone and assuming that the Black female students especially were being aggressive in times where they were passionate or upset or couldn’t get their point across. And it’s really shaped how the admin was viewing those situations because usually this was about the student just needing some time to process, some time to really debrief, some time for them to understand the cultural difference and how sometimes Black female students might respond to situations that shouldn’t be deemed as aggressive.
(14:00):
So, that was really eye-changing for the admin where they were saying, “Okay, we’re obviously causing harm to the student.” And it led to her, she was suspended a lot for these incidents. And so that’s just to say that a lot of the time there are so many components going into why staff are leaning towards suspension. And a lot of the time it’s because they don’t have another response. They don’t have another tool to use. There’s power in suspension. So, there’s nothing else for the school to do to show the student that you did something wrong and we are in control of the situation.
(14:35):
And so, yes, that’s that weaponizing piece, that’s the overuse of the suspension is because there are no other tools really used in schools to be able to address. They don’t know any other ways to hold students accountable. And so we’re constantly seeing the use of suspension instead of restorative practices, instead of having the student see what the teacher will want. Maybe something the teacher needs, like I need a student to help me copy papers and that’s your act of service. So, there’s other ways to hold a student accountable. There’s other ways for the student to stay in the community and to be of service to the folks that they harm. But I think schools are so used to that suspension that it’s just overused.
Dwayne (15:15): You made a lot of great points, Kiya. And one point that I did want to just drive home a little bit, and to get both you and Gina’s perspective on it, is that over policing in certain schools. What does that look like? I mean, that’s something that we can’t ignore, those varying levels of the police presence, but how does that impact students? Gina?
Gina (15:41): One thing that I think, in going to different schools across Massachusetts, that is very evident is just how different each school is. With some schools, you don’t see a security guard there all day. In other schools there’s multiple police presence outside, inside school. So, even just that at a very base level, there’s differences there. But I think what often ends up happening is that the student body is often thought of to blame for the environment within the school. And very rarely do we look at it and say, “Well, maybe this environment within the school is generating these reactions and generating this student body.” And so, I think what is really important is to understand that the way that we police students in school and the way that we address harm in school, whether if that’s violence or verbal aggression or disrespect towards a student, is oftentimes the tools they see as ways to deal with issues that they face, and so oftentimes it sort of reflects back on the student body the way that the administrative and the school environment places that idea upon them.
Dwayne (16:59): I can only imagine that schools with that heavier police presence can often create environments where students feel monitored versus supported. And I’m sure that in that in itself can escalate situations that could otherwise be resolved through dialogue. And then on the flip side, schools with minimal violence and supportive systems tend to see better outcomes for students.
Kiya (17:24): Yes, and I think what we’re talking about is school-to-prison pipeline, and there are racial implications here. If we’re talking about increased police presence in Black and Brown communities with Black and Brown students, that means Black and Brown students have more touch points, they have more occurrences with police. And so, there’s already the criminalization over police and of student behavior, especially with Black and Latinx students. There’s disciplinary actions that are usually unjust, and it disproportionately affects Black and Brown students because usually in a situation where an admin would be able to deal with an incident that’s happening in the school, you wouldn’t see that the police are brought in in communities where police are just not around. But if the police are there and there’s an incident, the police are likely going to be brought into those incidents where the schools typically used to handle those.
(18:19):
And so, now you have students have an increased number of arrests and run-ins with the police. There’s an impact on school culture. There’s this perceived sense of safety, but how can you really be safe if there’s nothing but police around? So, I think the idea is that it increases safety, but as we’re seeing, those are still communities that are struggling with safety in the schools. There’s still school fights, there’s still incidents of violence happening in the school. So, there is this perceived sense of increased safety with the police being there, but really what it creates is students feeling like they’re being coached into doing something: if the police is here, you’re assuming I’m going to do something bad. And so, that shift the school culture altogether, which, as Gina was saying, affects how student is looking at their own behavior, looking at the admin, the staff in the school, and it really does cause more harm than it does really good or safety as the purpose of having SROs in the school to begin with.
Dwayne (19:19): Thank you so much, Kiya, for breaking that down, as we know that the school-to-prison pipeline is a term we often hear alongside with restorative practice. I would love for both of you to just share some key takeaways for educators in the school systems around building that trust with students and that relationship building to avoid some of these pitfalls in which you have described.
Kiya (19:44): I would say get to know your student body. It’s hard to hold someone accountable that you do not know, that you have no understanding of their culture, no understanding of how they deal with conflict. These are really important factors to keep at play as folks are in schools, especially as administrators, folks who are typically in roles of power and are the ones who usually are providing some sort of tool for accountability in schools, whether that’s in-school suspension or out-of-school suspension, detention, et cetera. Folks who are in those roles really take the time to get to know your students because, I think, having that relationship and that trust would make holding students accountable a lot easier. There’s this level of fairness and justice that comes in when you understand the folks that you’re providing services for.
Dwayne (20:38): Gina, I pose the same question to you. What advice?
Gina (20:41): I would say there’s a lot of power dynamics in schools and I think students are, they notice this a lot. And so, I think, doing what you can to diminish these power dynamics and diminish these systems of, “I’m in charge and you’re below me.” Because students, they do, they feel it. And I think bringing in peer workers into this situation can be really beneficial to allow students that space to not feel like they’re in this position to get in trouble or to be spoken down to. And so, allowing them those spaces to let them tell their side of what they feel like happened in an environment that they feel comfortable in. Get people that speak their language to really be able to assess these situations and break it down in a way they can feel comfortable and they can hold themselves accountable. I would say really working on diminishing those power dynamics within schools is really going to benefit youth and students.
Dwayne (21:46): I love those takeaways. Restorative practices have the potential to transform not just schools, but entire communities. Thank you, Kiya, for your time. It has been a pleasure.
Kiya (21:59): Thank you.
Dwayne (22:00): And thank you, Gina, so much.
Gina (22:02): Thank you so much.
Dwayne (22:04): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (22:08): Visit www.c4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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