An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
Ashley Stewart shares what it means to lead with an equity first approach with host Livia Davis.
November 11, 2024
Livia Davis, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Livia Davis. I’m the Chief Learning Officer at C4 Innovations. Our topic today is the Equity First Framework, and my guest is Dr. Ashley Stewart, calling in from New Jersey. Ashley is the Director of the Center for Health Equity at C4 Innovations and Assistant Professor at Temple University. Ashley, thank you for joining us today.
Ashley Stewart, Guest (00:33): Livia, thank you for having me. I’m so excited to be a guest on the Changing the Conversation podcast.
Livia (00:41): That is right. For our listeners, you may know that Ashley is often a host, so we are looking forward to a conversation with her to share more of her subject matter expertise around the Equity First Framework. So Ashley, let’s just get right to it. What is the Equity First Framework?
Ashley (01:03): Yeah, so the Equity First Framework, when I present on it, I make a joke sometimes that it’s not so much a complicated framework as it is a change or shift in the way that we think about our prioritizations about equity. It’s about taking a holistic or an ecological approach to understanding what should come first and how to engage people in meaningful and authentic ways.
Livia (01:34): So maybe to help our listeners, let’s think about sharing some of the history of the framework. How did it evolve? Could you talk a little bit about that?
Ashley (01:44): The Equity First Framework evolved out of the necessity to help organizations acknowledge what was the biggest barriers to their diversification efforts. So a little context about it. The Equity First Framework brings in multiple other theoretical perspectives or other critical contexts. It uses the ecological systems model. It brings in research from diversity initiatives and folks who have studied the impact of diversity within organizations. And it also includes a lot of really good theoretical framework and information around the importance of inclusion, really thinking about the nature of exclusion and isolation following the Surgeon General’s report that talked about the impact of isolation. So all of these things come together to really examine what does it mean to lead with equity first, how do we explain equity, which is a complex concept to folks and specifically differentiated between diversity and inclusion.
Livia (02:51): I think that’s really helpful. If you’re looking at the Equity First Framework and you are understanding it to be a framework that really incorporates a number of other fields in other frameworks to look at how do you prioritize equity first when you are undertaking DEI efforts, that is really what I heard you say, and maybe you could just take a little more time to describe it again just to make it come alive for our listeners a little bit more.
Ashley (03:24): Absolutely. So when I work with organizations, a lot of times I’ll go in and they’ll say, “Hey, Ashley, we’re really looking to diversify. We want to increase the number of people we’re serving. We want to diversify our staff. We want to diversify our initiatives. And in doing that, we are striving to make an inclusive environment. We want people to feel very much included. And our overarching overall goal is to get to a place where equity is a top priority,” and it goes in that order. And honestly, I think that DIE would’ve been the natural trajectory of that acronym, but that’s not a really great acronym. So we talk DEI, you may hear DEIB, belongingness, JEDIA, justice, you may have accessibility included in that. And so all of the positioning of it is where we’re putting the words in order to create different acronyms.
(04:24): But usually when I’m talking to folks, they’re really talking about leading with that diversification. Now it makes sense to me that people want to lead with diversity. There’s no shortage at all of information data scholarship that presents the reality that diversity is essential. In fact, I’m a researcher. I tried to find research that states the opposite, but it’s really hard to do because diversity adds such inherent value. In fact, McKinsey and Company, their big 2022 study, Diversity Matters, looked at how organizations were outperforming folks when they leaned into diversity. But what we also learned with that study and many others, is that diversity and inclusion are not synonyms. So while organizations have been doing a really good job at diversifying, the sentiment that people have around inclusion is the opposite.
(05:20): And so while people are there, they’re trying to shift and change and contort or present themselves in ways that are going to be socially accepted in that environment, which is a threat to people’s ability to be their authentic cultural selves and authentic in their identities. So the Equity First Framework looks at that and says, okay, how do we begin to look at the culture, the space, the environment, the policies, the practices, the procedures, or like I like to describe it, the gaps that exist and persist, and start to look at those to shift and change the environment where inclusion can be paramount and where authenticity can actually thrive.
Livia (06:05): Wonderful. That is a lot of really good information. When I think about my experience running programs, before I came to C4 Innovations, I would indeed have started with diversification as a first step because my understanding would’ve been if I am able to employ people who come from diverse communities, then I would be able to get their insight in how to make sure that the services that I would be providing within my program would be better serving the people we are trying to reach. And what I’m hearing you say is that we need to take a step before that. We really need to think about what is it about our culture and our policies and our practices that would allow people representing diverse communities to come and be their whole selves and contribute, and also importantly, not make the expectation that it is people from diverse communities that have to lead that effort, that indeed the program leadership need to be leading that from day one. Is that correct?
Ashley (07:22): Precisely. When we engage with folks through the lens of diversification, the intention is there. We know that people are bringing wonderful, amazing expertise through their lived and living experiences as well as through their identities. But we also run the risk of folks feeling tokenized, folks being utilized as tools to help us build an equitable system, which is laborious and also can be emotionally exhausting to people as they have to navigate through the inequities that are already persistent in the organization. And folks in fact will tell me, “Ashley, we’re striving for equality here. Equality is the goal,” and equity and equality are often juxtaposed against each other. And I think that some of our goals, particularly with ensuring that everyone has access to the room, is one of equality. Making sure that everyone can be treated the same, seeing everyone the same, providing everyone the same opportunities.
(08:29): And equity is a step before equality. In order for equality to be possible, we have to be able to understand where are the different starting places, what are the different resources, in kind and tangible, that people have had or the different access to information that people have had that create differential baselines from the beginning? And so we look at the historical context. We don’t take an ahistorical, we appreciate the importance of history. We start to look at what is our recruitment and retention process in general? What does it look like for initiatives around creating an inclusive environment to be meritorious in the workplace? And the list goes on and on and on of things that we should consider about the environment as well as the structure of the environment that will allow for those diverse perspectives, that rich expertise that we get with diversity to really thrive.
Livia (09:25): That is wonderful and makes so much sense. In thinking about my time in running programs, I certainly did some of that, but most of it I didn’t. And so I think it would be really important if you could talk about how you’ve used it with programs. Again, just to talk a little bit about my own experience, I have certainly been involved in creating consumer advisory boards to inform policies that impact people coming to programs, but I haven’t necessarily in the past looked at how do we make sure that people feel they can contribute and share their ideas freely in various levels within the organization, or how do we make sure that we even look at our job descriptions and our recruitment material to make people feel that they’re seen within the agency? So if you could just talk a little bit more about how you use it with programs, I think that would be really helpful.
Ashley (10:28): Yeah, so once we start to establish the goals, we then activate that Equity First Framework, and we start with equity. What are the gaps that exist and persist? Let’s look at our practices. Let’s look at our programs, let’s look at our procedures. Let’s look at our policies, let’s look at the culture. Let’s look at the organizational values and ensure that they are reflective of equity, of creating an environment that can truly and genuinely be inclusive. And then we usually go into what does inclusivity look like in the organization? So when I’m talking about or using this framework, folks often will hear me lean on two quotes. The first is that, “If an environment feels threatening, we’ll tend to conform in order to achieve a sense of safety and protection,” Patricia Faison Hewlin talks about this in an article about inclusion. And what it really describes is that in environments that don’t feel equitable, people are conforming.
(11:28): They’re contorting, they’re shifting, they’re shape-shifting, they’re putting on masks to show up as different versions of themselves to feel safe, which is different than us bringing our full happy personalities to work or whatever our personalities show up. But this is people avoiding racist comments and changing aspects about themselves to avoid those hurtful comments. People repositioning their bodies to avoid homophobic, transphobic comments. This is folks who are not accessing different accommodations that would help to improve her work dynamics, but instead recognizing that the biases about disabilities impact people’s work environment, and the list goes on and on and on. So we know that we need to achieve an inclusive environment for people to feel safe. The second quote that we usually lean in on is one by Ellen Boder, which says that, “When our minds and body experience safety, our social engagement systems enable us to collaborate, to listen, to empathize, to connect, to be creative and innovative and bold.”
(12:35): And I help organizations think about what would it look like? What would it look like to be creative and innovative and bold? And we begin to examine that process and then we see how that applies. Last step of the Equity First Framework is equity, inclusion and diversity. Recognizing and appreciating the diversity that already exists in the organization because it’s already there. And also creating a safer environment for the diversity that will continue to come inevitably as the environment becomes more healing centered and trauma-informed through this practice of prioritization of equity. So I’ve used it as structurally to help people think through their goals. We have used it very extensively to look at those programs and policies, et cetera, and maybe do some surveying, some assessment to identify what those goals should be. We have used it to develop training materials to help create and change and shift the culture so that it can be equity forward, and in a lot of spaces it has made that conversation not more digestible and being more user-friendly, but more digestible, and that people actually have a context to understand equity as opposed to it being some big scary thing that people are afraid to engage with.
Livia (13:53): I love that so much, and it would’ve been such a help when I was running programs to be able to talk about it in a straightforward manner, demystifying it, having it be non-threatening, and even having a little bit of an audit tool to say, “What are you doing now?” Or an assessment tool. And what are some of the activities and what are some of the programming that other programs have done that you could think about again, so that you’re always looking at how do you improve it and it doesn’t become so scary? So I really love everything you’re saying. And I also know that of course there are challenges with addressing issues around DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about some of the challenges with using this framework.
Ashley (14:51): Yeah. So we started to get to it when we were talking about it being digestible, which in itself is something that can challenge us to think that something around people’s human rights could be indigestible to folks. But the truth of the matter is that there’s a lot of misconceptions, a lot of misinformation, and a lot of hurt and trauma that has happened in conversations about DEI. In fact, we are well aware that in many states there are policies and laws being passed that prohibit the discussion of DEI and maybe different critical race theory and other theories alike or similar. And that is absolutely a challenge to coming in saying, “Hey, we’re going to talk about putting equity first,” because people may have some natural apprehensions. In fact, knowing that I’m a race equity trainer or health equity professional, a lot of folks will ask me, “Ashley, how do you respond to the claims that the DEI initiatives that have happened in the last five years have been quite unsuccessful?”
(16:02): And I like to always have transparent conversations. Many of those initiatives have been, but not because the concept or the conversation is not critically important and not because creating more equitable environments wouldn’t shift or change our environments. The issue is that we started to pull people into the conversation without a clear understanding of their knowledge about strategy. I consider myself to be an equity strategist, really understanding how to integrate it meaningfully within an environment. We started having difficult conversations without any tangible outcomes to come after it, which can A, increase distrust for people who have been harmed or who continuously experience oppression to have to be engaged and vulnerable in that conversation and see no outcomes does even more harm. And for folks who were apprehensive to have that conversation, who willingly or forcibly jumped into those conversations, and also not be able to see anything shift in the environment except physical discomfort, that is not leading to the outcomes that we are hopeful with.
(17:09): So there are a lot of challenges because if the commitment of it is only in talking about it and not in action, we run the risk of rupturing trust and causing trauma. And so, I would say the biggest challenge is ensuring that the different folks we work with, the organizations we serve are committed to the full culture change, acknowledging that there’s going to be pivots and pitfalls that we have to navigate around to make sure it’s sustainable and concretizable. And it is not a one stop shop, it’s not a one training, it’s not a five point plan, but it is an entire culture shift, and that takes a different level of commitment.
Livia (17:46): So having a change team, having a team that’s in charge of making sure that this ongoing commitment happens, having that in place is an important part. Having it be part of center strategies or department strategies or program strategies continually is really important. Also, communicating about, to both external and internal stakeholders, is really important about progress, about failures, to be transparent, to learn from each other, to continually work together on it, to know we’re going to sometimes make mistakes, to know we are going to have wins we can celebrate. But more importantly, what I heard you say is that this is something that we must continue to focus on and continue. It cannot be additive. It really has to be part of a whole transformation, which again, of course comes back to what you were talking about with equity first being part of changing the culture, the values, the policies, and the practices. So this is wonderful. And are there some resources that you can think about sharing with our listeners who would like to engage in this framework?
Ashley (19:09): Yes. So we’ve developed some conversation starters that help folks think about where they are in their level of preparedness and readiness to do equity-centered work, healing-centered organizational change. In addition to that, there’s equity audits and equity assessments that folks can do. Of course, there are going to need to be different groups that help to move the work ahead, but also recognizing that the more we integrate it into the culture, the more that everyone sees it as their lane. And so training or organization-wide training can really facilitate and aid in that by empowering people to be on board and excited and enthusiastic about these changes. Because we do know, and research does show that it affects everyone positively. If we really give it a chance and we meaningfully integrate it, I’ve seen it be extremely successful. So those are some of the different things. I am going to ask that Erika put some of those handouts in the show notes so that people can start having this conversation, but also gathering or gaining some support from equity strategists or other folks who are experts in long-term change within organizations can also be really helpful to establish goals that are not only realistic, but goals that also reflect the inclusion of everyone in that process, which is going to be a really huge part of it.
Livia (20:44): This is so good, and the work is so meaningful and rewarding, and it also helps us grow. So thank you so much, and I do hope our listeners will look at some of those resources. I know there are some great resources. I know the Equity Audit is fantastic. I know some of the other resources you’re going to provide as well are really helpful and hands-on. And of course, you can always contact us if you want more information. Ashley, I want to thank you so much for joining us today. It has been a great and important conversation.
Ashley (21:22): I agree, Livia, thank you for the opportunity to have this conversation, and thanks for having me to talk about the framework.
Livia (21:29): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (21:33): Visit C4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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