An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
Roni Hodges and Ashley Stewart share why discussing diversity, equity, and inclusion is critically important with host Dwayne Watkins.
October 28, 2024
Dwayne Watkins, Host (00:05): Hello, and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dwayne Watkins, Health Equity Manager at C4 Innovations. On today’s episode, we’re diving into the D word, a word that once symbolized inclusivity but has since sparked deeper conversations. Yes, esteemed listeners, we’re talking about diversity. Not only will we be talking about diversity in general, but also how it fits into the broader context of equity and inclusion.
(00:35): To help us navigate this nuanced, timely, and essential conversation, I’m absolutely thrilled to be joined by two incredible guests and human beings. First, we have Dr. Ashley Stewart, the director of all directors, but more specifically the Director of the Center for Health Equity here at C4 Innovations Dr. Stewart, how are you doing today?
Ashley Stewart, Guest (00:58): I’m doing amazing. I’m feeling very fortunate to be hosted by the one and only Dwayne Watkins. Thanks for having me.
Dwayne (01:05): Oh, thank you. Thank you for being here. And joining her is Roni Hodges, the Senior Manager of Operations, Communications, and Innovation at ARC4Justice. Roni, how are you doing today?
Roni Hodges, Guest (01:19): I am delighted to be here talking to my brother in the struggle for years and years and happy to contribute to this conversation.
Dwayne (01:26): It has been a while, but we are making it. Roni, I’m sure we have some listeners out there who are not as familiar with ARC4Justice as they are with C4, so do you mind giving us a quick rundown of just who and what ARC4Justice is?
Roni (01:39): ARC4Justice spins off the work of the REDI team, which was formerly at C4, and is now operating to advance racial justice and equity in housing and homelessness. ARC4Justice, which is the Anti-Racism Center for Justice and Transformative Change, is a national leader in advancing equitable community-centered, data-informed efforts to address deep systemic racial inequities and access to affordable housing and resource allocations in communities of color. All that to say we’re getting into the systemic root of inequities in housing and community systems and bringing back power to the people.
Dwayne (02:17): Power to the people. Thank you, Roni, and thank you, ARC4Justice. I’m sure I share the same sentiment as our listeners that we are excited to learn more about ARC4Justice and to just hear about the things that you have done and will do in the future. So thank you again for being here.
(02:33): So together today we’ll explore the complexities of diversity, its evolving role in equity work, and what it truly means in today’s landscape. Dr. Stewart, are you ready?
Ashley (02:44): Always.
Dwayne (02:45): Roni, are you ready?
Roni (02:47): I was born ready.
Dwayne (02:48): All right. Well, let’s get into it. So Dr. Stewart, as we kick off, can you share a bit of context around diversity, equity, inclusion, also referred to as DEI. You know, what does it really mean in today’s social climate, and how do we navigate the challenges that come with it?
Ashley (03:05): What you just said in and of itself encapsulates the complexity of it. We talk about DEI. We put it together as if it’s one singular thing, and DEI is a multitude of different initiatives that should be working with a level of synchronicity to achieve multiple outcomes. So diversity is the inclusion of people with different expertise, experiences, identities, perspectives, ideologies. This diversity of things reflects the multitude of different ways that people can show up or ways that things, people, et cetera, can include. Diversity is a fairly broad term.
(03:47): Inclusion is really centered around whether or not those diverse perspectives, experiences, identities are able to fully contribute to be part, to feel welcome, to be able to show up authentically. That’s the critical inclusion piece.
(04:02): And then equity, equity is about addressing the gaps that exist and persist that have created barriers from that being able to occur, that have created barriers for people to live, to thrive. And equity is about really understanding what are those systemic and structural barriers. But to Roni’s point earlier, not just to see them or address them, but to really get in and correct them when Roni was describing ARC’s vision of redressing, getting in and changing things. And so equity is a very complex concept that is different than equality, and absolutely a fore-step before we get to equality.
(04:43): Now, I usually make the joke that when I talk to folks, the goal is usually to diversify, to create more inclusion, and then to have an overarching goal of being more equitable. That is not as nice of an acronym as DEI. DEI doesn’t quite fit the nice acronym flow, so I think we ended up grouping DEI. But you’ll also see people say JEDI justice or you’ll see A, JEDIA, accessibility. You may see B for belonging. There’s a lot of different concepts that people want to include in these overarching goals, which DEI tends to be that, a goal that we have for diversification, creating spaces of inclusion, and, in my opinion, most paramount, ensuring that equity is a priority in everything that we do.
Dwayne (05:33): I love that, especially the ensuring that equity is a priority in everything that we do. So how do you think we got to the point where the word diversity has become such a flash point? It is used to represent inclusivity, but now it seems to stir up so much more debate and even more resistance. What do you think has led to this shift? I would love to pose that question to both of you. Roni, you mind kicking us off?
Roni (05:56): I think that it is a result of the agenda to minimize the roles of people of color in spaces and that they are grasping for straws. They put any face there that you see that it’s trying to battle the efforts to include diverse groups into decision-making into certain spaces, but they want to separate people because we know that there’s power in unity. So the more that you can find ways to divide people and you find these little buzzwords like diversity and equity and thinking about… In some states, they can’t even use those words in policy. And it’s really just an effort to make people believe that they’re more different than they are similar and that we’re all trying to work towards the purpose of creating spaces that bring in the best thinking, encourage folks to be their whole selves, to be representative of the communities that we come from.
(06:54): And I think once they latch onto something, it becomes the new banner for, “Oh, this is code for they’re trying to take your jobs. These are Black jobs. They’re coming over and stealing your communities.” So it becomes this banner that they use and they find whatever the order of the day is and they say people are thinking about and talking about and try to turn that on its head to dismantle progress that we’re trying to make in communities.
Dwayne (07:21): And so the “they,” AKA the powers that be, what do you think made them lead to this shift in making diversity such a nasty word, Dr. Stewart?
Ashley (07:33): Yeah. I’m going to say it how I see it and then I’m going to break it down a bit. I think it’s conflation due to ignorance. People are conflating terms. They’re conflating theories. They’re conflating social issues. They’re conflating a lot of things. And I use the term ignorance in the literal sense, not knowing.
(07:53): And I think to build on what Roni, what you’re saying, is there’s so much of that that is deeply rooted and intentional. And what ends up happening is with some intentional minimalization of the contributions, that then becomes that thumbprint, that fingerprint of the culture where other people begin to experience it, whether that’s through direct explicit biases, unconscious biases, implicit biases, and it ends up becoming something that becomes so commonplace, so normal to then associate something as specific, and tangible, and important as DEI or diversity in specific to a whole bunch of other issues.
(08:39): And so when it becomes so conflated, it’s easier for people to just say, “That’s too much. That’s too big. We’re not even going to touch that topic,” instead of folks taking the opportunity to understand what all of the different terms, what all the different experiences and, more specifically, the phenomenon that people are experiencing are, and then begin to engage with that in a meaningful way. It’s a quick shutdown for something that overwhelms someone because they don’t have the information, they don’t have the knowledge, and/or it simply goes against what the “they” would like to see, which is the empowerment and the mutuality of value of people within our society.
Dwayne (09:23): You both made such great points. And speaking of this replacement of diversity, equity, inclusion, or DEI, there’s been talk of shifting from DEI to MEI, which stands for merit, excellence, and intelligence. Roni, for starters, do you mind explaining to our listeners what MEI means? And additionally, how do we interpret that change? Do we think prioritizing merit and individual achievement risk overlooking the systemic inequalities that DEI is trying to address or is there a way for MEI to coexist or even replace DEI principles effectively?
Roni (10:04): Meritocracy is really center around the idea that if a person works hard, they can pull themselves out of poverty, but it really ignores the historical impacts of racism and racial discrimination. And so to think that now we can turn to a merit-based system where people are not situated equally, everyone is not coming from the same place, they’re not having the same access to resources, education, wellness, health, and to say, “You’re here, and someone may be 10 steps ahead of you, good luck,” — you all are trying to level the playing field without having access to the same equipment. And so I don’t think that that is a replacement for diversity, and to make that one, offer that as a solution, is really disingenuous and ignores a lot of the history of this country.
Dwayne (11:02): That is such a great point, Roni. Because I’m coming from a generation where I think merit was always at the forefront. And just being a Black man in this country, I was taught that if you make great grades, you go to college, you graduate, you’re going to come out and you’re going to have a successful career and make tons of money and then essentially have the white picket fence, the dog, and the partner, et cetera, et cetera. And I quickly learned that one plus one did not always equal two in that equation because of some of those things in which you were talking about those outliers, those social determinants of health. And just in general, some of those systems were at play that essentially showed me that my merit wasn’t enough. So I am in complete agreement with you that merit is not going to be enough and that it is important to focus on diversity, and equity, and inclusion as we’ve been talking about throughout this conversation.
(12:00): And so that leads me to another kind of nuanced point when it comes to DEI, and that is the myth that DEI is only for Black and Brown people. I would love to pose this question to both of you, as there is often the misconception that DEI is solely for addressing the needs of Black and Brown communities, but it actually benefits so much more and much broader groups in general. Can you help dispel this myth and explain how DEI creates opportunities and fosters inclusions for various groups and not just people of color?
Ashley (12:36): I know we’re going to talk a little bit about affirmative action and we’re going to talk quite a bit about where this misconception comes from, that DEI is something that only benefits Black and Brown people or only deals with issues pertaining to Black and Brown people, but that is also underlining the idea that racism is also a Black and Brown person’s problem. And instead, it ignores the truth that these issues we’re talking about exists on a spectrum of white supremacy to anti-Black racism. And oftentimes, even when we talk about white supremacy, on the spectrum white supremacy to anti-Black racism, people think that that includes white and Black people. But what we’re really reflecting on is how people all throughout all identities, all races, all ages, all genders, all backgrounds are deeply and meaningfully impacted in their quality of life based on the assumption that things in closer proximity to the construct of whiteness is supreme.
(13:44): And so as I think about why people get so activated or why people assume that DEI initiatives are only impacting Black and Brown folks is because we are treating DEI as if it’s something we can do. And part of that is that we’re talking about DEI as if it’s one thing with a singular definition. DEI stands for diversity, equity, and inclusion, which are three completely different things and involve a lot of different social systems to meaningful engage with. Diversity inherently includes everyone. Inclusion inherently includes everyone. And equity looks at how everyone doesn’t have the same or similar opportunities, same access, same resources to be included or even to not be harmed in that process of diversification of that process of bringing different truths into a singular space, as one example.
(14:47): So the idea that we can do DEI or we’re doing a good job at DEI, are you doing a good job at all three of those things? Is there something else that we need to be doing? So I think it all gets pretty conflated and complicated when we don’t really talk about the issues at hand and try to encapsulate it all so easy and simplistically, which also allows for it to be more digestible or palatable for people who maybe aren’t unwilling to do the work to understand how to put it into action.
Dwayne (15:20): Nope. I mean, there have been a few mic drop moments. And Roni, I think Dr. Stewart just tried to mic drop us on that one. That was a beautiful response, and I think it definitely encapsulates what is happening in today’s society.
(15:33): With the rise of the anti-DEI initiatives, who do you think are the most vulnerable groups affected by these movements? And how do you think these efforts impact not only people of color or other marginalized communities, such as women, LGBTQ+ individuals, or people with disabilities?
Roni (15:52): I think who is impacted most and don’t realize are the ones who’ve benefited the most, which have historically been white women. And when you look at the advancements that have been made and negate the fact that your success is in part due to these initiatives and advancements, what you see is the clock turning back. So the progress that you’ve made and you’ve attained a certain level of success, and when you have the delusion that it is simply because you were so great at your job, that it was based on your merit and not realizing that is a result of the work that people did to get these things into place, like affirmative action, when you then start to fight against your own interests, you see, in time, that your place begins to be stripped away, and then all of a sudden you see that the work that you were fighting against was the work that was helping you. So I think that people need to be very mindful of what they’re fighting against because a lot of times you don’t see until too late that you’re fighting against your own interest.
(17:11): The benefit for people of color as a result of DEI initiatives has been much more limited than people realize. And so I think Dr. Stewart made a really great point that people are throwing all of these things into a box, anything that they feel uncomfortable with, because they tried to villainize what DEI is. So anything that they don’t like, anything that they feel they don’t benefit from, they try to throw it into the box of DEI and make it the fault or the burden of people of color.
(17:45): But I think people need to be very aware that sometimes you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. You think you are hurting us, but at the end of the day, you are going to be hurting you. And we’re seeing that now with the rollback of affirmative action in colleges because the groups that were pushing it are now seeing that they’re the ones who were hurt by it. Enrollment for Hispanic students has gone up. Black students has somewhat remained the same. But you see some of those groups that were pushing for this change, their enrollment has gone down, or the acceptance has gone down into these institutions. So what you thought you were doing to hurt us actually ended up hurting you.
(18:24): So I think people need to be mindful of and really research on what these benefits allow and what they support as they move towards trying to make things merit-based, trying to get this idea that anybody can work hard and get to the top, and not realizing that one plus one does not equal two for everybody. Some people have to do two plus two to get the one that you have.
Ashley (18:45): Absolutely. Absolutely. And just to lean into that a little bit more, the other side of it too, that’s like looking at people are attempting to decrease access to specific communities and because there’s a sentiment that there’s an unfair advantage that’s being given to, say, Black or Brown communities, to students with disabilities, to LGBTQ folk. And the underlying assumption in that is that when groups that have been systemically and structurally marginalized gain access, that that hurts someone else. And that is fundamentally flawed because one of the things that we know, is this study pervasively, is that when we do prioritize diversity, when we do prioritize inclusion, and most specifically when we do prioritize equity, it increases the wellness for everyone involved.
(19:44): And I think sometimes white and white-identified folks see themselves removed from the different equity initiatives because the fear is that the status quo currently benefits them. But what we’ve actually seen in practice is that when environments become more inclusive, that is also very liberating to white and white-identified folks as well. That’s also very healing to the trauma of white, white-identified folks. And so the misconception that something is being blocked, it is really blocking the wellness for everyone.
Roni (20:21): When you said that, that made me think about the American dream and everybody trying to get their piece of the pie, and I think that’s the thinking that people have. “There’s a pie, and I have to get my portion of it. And the pie is limited. It’s only one pie to get. If I don’t get my piece, I’m going to be left hungry.” And we need to start looking at it as a pie. Stop looking at it like a pie and start thinking of it as a buffet. There’s plenty for everyone.
(20:46): Me getting my plate is not going to stop you from eating. And you shouldn’t look at me getting something off the buffet is, “Oh, you took what I wanted.” There’s plenty for everyone to have, and we need to be in that mindset instead of a scarcity mindset. And I think that’s what ARC4Justice does, and I think that’s the work that C4 does. And hopefully we can continue to have these conversations and get the people thinking about what it is that we’re really trying to accomplish and what is out there for everyone to have.
Dwayne (21:14): And Roni, on that note, and Dr. Stewart, I think that this will be a good place to end this very mindful, yet not so demure, conversation that we have had on the word diversity. Roni Hodges, thank you so much for being a part of this conversation.
Roni (21:32): Thank you so much for having me.
Dwayne (21:34): And Dr. Ashley Stewart, thank you for bringing your expertise in leaning into this conversation.
Ashley (21:39): It’s been an absolute pleasure.
Dwayne (21:41): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (21:46): Visit www.c4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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