An episode of “Changing the Conversation” podcast
Rowan Willis-Powell and host Ashley Stewart discuss the role and importance of youth peer support.
June 17, 2024
Ashley Stewart, Host (00:05): Hello, and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dr. Ashley Stewart, and I am the director of the Center for Health Equity at C4 Innovations. And today we are joined by the one and only Rowan Willis-Powell. Rowan is a subject matter expert and manager at the Center for Youth Wellbeing at C4 Innovations. Rowan, thanks so much for being here with us today.
Rowan Willis-Powell, Guest (00:29): Thanks, Ashley. I’m so happy to be here.
Ashley (00:32): And Rowan, today you and I are going to talk about the youth peer model and I think that some of our listeners might not be familiar with a peer model and maybe certainly not a youth peer model. So maybe that’s a good place to start. Let’s talk a little bit about what is the youth peer model.
Rowan (00:51): I think when we’re thinking of a peer model broadly, folks I think understand what that means in the sense of someone with lived or living experience, providing peer support to someone that is in need of support and services. When we’re thinking about a youth peer model, pretty similar application. It’s near-age peers, youth peers, which I will say the definition of age-wise really depends on usually your funding stream. So we’re going to speak broadly and say that it’s between the ages of 18 and 29, but providing those peer services to either other young adults that are also in that age range or children that are under the age of 18. And these peers have, I think usually a broader understanding of lived experience.
(01:45): The way that I talk about it is less about the lived experience aspect and more about the systems experience aspect. So having experience either with a behavioral health diagnosis or involvement in the foster care system, juvenile justice system, in the public mental health system, it’s more about being involved in the child serving system world and being able to tap upon those experiences and use them in your work, in your life.
Ashley (02:18): And I think that that’s such an important distinction that you’re making and I kind of want to sit with that a little bit more. So you mentioned the differences between lived and living experience and systems level experience. I know often when people think about lived experience, they think about people’s living experience inside those systems, but I hear you’re talking about systems experience a little differently. Can you dive into that and talk a little bit more about what that means?
Rowan (02:46): One of the main differences, and maybe it’s just a difference of semantics and not so much an actual difference, but I think when you take the systems approach, you are being a bit broad and also coming from the concept that most young people aren’t being touched by a single point in the system. So their experience isn’t just, I’m Rowan, I have a behavioral health diagnosis. It’s I’m Rowan, I have a behavioral health diagnosis, and I was involved in the public mental health system at a young age. I received services from all of these different service systems and they all interacted with me differently. And they all impacted me differently.
(03:32): And sometimes they communicated and sometimes they didn’t. I think it’s also when we look at the adult system, people are very quick to — peers are very quick to kind of claim they’re a mental health peer, they’re a substance use peer, they’re a forensic peer when in all likelihood they would probably interacted with the majority of all of the systems in their life, not just one of them, but there’s kind of a tendency to claim either the system that served you the most or you got the most out of.
(04:11): And I think in kind of the child-serving world, there’s a more broader approach and it’s I think almost going back to the wraparound model of looking in the sense that all of these systems are touching a child’s life. So systems approach in that sense.
Ashley (04:30): It makes me think of how we start to shift language around to marginalized, acknowledging the rule that a system has. And I think about the identity centered trauma work that I do and how so much of that really centers putting the responsibility of, in many cases, harm that’s caused on the systems that are perpetuating the harm that are causing the appropriate adaptive responses of people. And it evokes a little bit of that for me too in how you just described it.
Rowan (05:02): Ashley, I’ve never thought of it that way, but I think that’s definitely the case, particularly within kind of the foster care system. There’s been an amazing sense of growth of youth peers in that system who I think really talk about and claim the trauma and the harm the system has done to them. And a lot of their both peer work and advocacy work is very system-focused. And with that I think is also very advocacy-focused in the sense that I think by focusing on the concept of the way we interact with systems, you kind of have to address the fact that very rarely are they working perfectly and are they not causing harm.
(05:54): I think there’s also kind of a sense of, I don’t know if pride is the right word, but maybe pride is the right word, of being able to talk about your own systems experience and help someone else navigate through that systems experience that is really meaningful in any peer work. But I think especially youth peer work, I think some of my favorite moments of providing peer support on the ones where I’m most proud have been the moments where I’ve helped another young person go through the same mental health system that I went through in a way that was less harmful for them and their family and they gain knowledge that it didn’t have to earn the hard way, and that’s always really meaningful.
Ashley (06:51): Yeah, thank you for that. This is always us conversation, not them conversation right. And I think about how close this topic is to my life. And I’d imagine so many of the folks listening and tuning into this episode of the podcast. When we’re talking about the youth peer model, there are some inherent values that are associated with it. Can you tell us a little bit about those values?
Rowan (07:19): I think the first one that really comes to mind is the value of autonomy. And this is kind of a both ways value. It’s as a youth peer valuing your own autonomy, but also valuing the autonomy of the young person that you’re serving and understanding that their autonomy is not always but frequently different than their family’s autonomy. So if there is a moment where that choice is not shared by family and youth, it’s kind of your position to uplift the voice of that young person and make sure that they’re being heard and supported with the understanding that that doesn’t always mean that our choices are the end result, but I think the act of uplifting our choice is really crucial and meaningful.
(08:18): I think another one that comes to mind is the concept of empowerment. It’s very similar to autonomy, but it’s really kind of diving into that supportive adult role of being there to empower the voice of a young person and empower them to identify their strengths, their passions, and make sure that they are connected to any services and supports that they want to be.
(08:44): Another really key one which ties in with the first two is that it’s a voluntary service, so it is a choice being made by the young person to engage with it, which also means that it’s accessible in a format that they want, whether that be in person or virtual. Another one that kind of springs to mind is being developmentally appropriate, and that means that the conversation that you have with a 14-year-old isn’t the same conversation that you would have with a 19-year-old. And that’s something that I think is a tad different than adult peer support in the sense that you do need to have at least some level of understanding about child development.
(09:35): And I think collaboration is kind of the last one that comes to mind being a youth peer, which frequently means that you are not a single point of support for a young person. You are ideally part of a team where you are included and collaborated with and your voice is uplifted along the same level as your teammates. It’s not always the case. Sometimes the collaboration is something that the youth peer has to pursue a little bit more than the rest of the teammates. And frequently this means collaborating with family peers as well.
Ashley (10:16): Those values are so important and the idea that engaging with people in an attuned way, in an age appropriate attuned way, is so important and emphasizing that it doesn’t mean assuming what people have knowledge of based on their age and being a respecter of cultural knowledge, generational knowledge and generational experiences. So while many of us, myself included, consider ourselves young folks, I still am able to be a respecter of knowledge to know that I don’t know what it’s like to be 14 in this society at this moment with as many different demands and experiences and social things that are going on.
(11:07): I know what it was like for the social things and the technological advances, but there’s a knowledge base that is so important to honor. And I think sometimes folks like to assume what information or what a young person knows and what you’re describing is a developmental appreciation about being present and being willing to be informed and to willing to know, but also there’s actual knowledge about youth development that’s important. That’s something that people have to really lean into learn as opposed to something that we may assume that we have because we’ve at some point been a young person. Am I right with that? Because it doesn’t feel the same to say I know what it’s like because I’ve been 15, 14, 18, 19, but it’s what you’re describing as something more nuanced than that.
Rowan (12:03): 100%, Ashley. I think it’s kind of a combo platter of I, not speaking for myself anymore, because I am old now, but being in a place where you can say, you know what, I was 19, 17 not too long ago, and I have learned this developmental appropriate knowledge, so I can talk to you from both lenses of I know my experiences, I know your experiences are a little bit different than mine, you can have a conversation about them. And having that child development knowledge to say, and these are some of my favorite conversations to have of you are saying that you’re feeling this way and that makes sense not only because of all the things that are happening in your world, but also because you’re 15. And it makes a lot of sense for you to feel like you really crave your independence right now because not only is society telling you that you should, but also developmentally that’s what your brain is telling you you should.
(13:14): So being able to use all of those different knowledge points and then bring it back to at 15, I remember I also really wanted this thing. And so it’s kind of those multiple levels of not just providing that peer knowledge, but also providing that near age knowledge of like I have a little bit more that kind of rounds it out to make it something that’s not only a really great service to provide, but it’s meaningful for both parties.
(13:47): I think a lot of the youth peers that I’ve worked with and trained and supported talk about how not only are the youth they’re working with getting a lot out of it, but they’re getting a lot out of it too, and that’s always really amazing.
Ashley (14:02): That is amazing. I find that the biggest barrier for folks is language. People don’t know how to talk about something, folks don’t know what terms to use, and I think this is certainly such a growing area that I see this a lot. You use a couple terms. One you haven’t used on the podcast, but I heard you used before, and so I’m hoping you can bring it into this space. So I’m hoping you can give us a little context about Generation Next and what that means and who they are and maybe a little bit about the difference between youth peers and youth peer support.
Rowan (14:42): Generation Next is this really cool concept that I think is not only key for the youth peer work, but also I think key for not just all peer work but work in general really. But in youth peer work, it’s kind of this concept of you’re not going to be young forever. There’s always going to be another generation of young people coming behind you, and as a youth peer part of your job is to support them and uplift them. I think Youth Move has a really great ladder example of this.
(15:18): It’s called Youth Advocate to Advocate For Youth, and it’s a really great example of how you kind of start in this place of being really firmly a youth advocate, speaking with a youth voice, learning about your career and about advocacy, and then moving along the ladder into a place of advocate for youth, which is where I very firmly place myself now, and sometimes that’s terrifying for me, but of being in that place of uplifting the young people that came behind you, making sure that they’re included on things, uplifting their voice, no longer speaking for youth, but speaking with them and Generation Next as that concept of looking behind and making sure that you are not only paving the way, but also actively bringing people with you.
Ashley (16:13): Other terms that I hear folks kind of process through a bit too is the differences in youth peers and youth peer support. They sound similar, but there’s some uniqueness or … What might be some of the conversation around those two terms?
Rowan (16:30): Generally, when we talk about youth peers, we are talking about young adults between the ages of 18 and 29 who may be providing peer support, maybe not, but have lived experience or systems experience that they can speak to. When we talk about youth peer support, and this is one that I think is … I don’t want to say up for debate, but I think it really depends on what individual state you are in really.
(17:04): Broadly, it means youth peers that are providing peer support to other youth or children. Again, with that 18-29 age range for the people doing the work. In some states that does look a little bit different because people providing youth peer support might be adults who are trained to provide youth peer support. So when I’m saying adults, I’m meaning above the age of 29. There are a few systems that work it that way. It really depends on where you’re at, but I think generally we’re talking about folks providing that support, what that support looks like between that age range.
Ashley (17:45): That’s very helpful context for people to think about, consider and talk more about. What about behavioral health and peer wellness?
Rowan (17:56): And this is one that I think I find really interesting because it’s a more recent development, and by recent, I mean really since COVID. I think pre-COVID, when we were talking about the work that peers did, we were putting them into some really clear buckets. It was either you were a mental health peer, you were an SUD peer, you were a mental health youth peer, SUD youth peer. Maybe you had a forensics specialization as well, or maybe you worked in a state where everything was lumped together and you were behavioral health. Something that I’ve noticed in the youth peer world that’s been shifting, which I really love, is moving away from a very singular focus on to me, what seems like the way people are ill.
(18:50): So if people are struggling, what is the hard points in their life to a broader view of what does their whole life look like into wellness, which is really, really cool, and I think it’s amazing to see youth peers kind of pushing that stride forward, and I think it’s a great way to move peer support into the future as well because it opens up all of these possibilities where peers can work. But it’s kind of this mindset of as a peer supporter, as a youth peer, you were supporting someone in their whole life, in their whole wellness, not just the things that they struggle with, but also the things that bring them joy and they have strengths and helping them find wellness. That’s really, really cool.
Ashley (19:48): That is really cool, and that holistic perspective is so needed and reflective of who we are as people and environments and people and spaces and places. And Rowan, I just want to thank you so much for your time, your expertise, and joining us.
Rowan (20:04): Thank you, Ashley. I’m so glad to have been here today, and I’m so glad to have had this conversation with you.
Ashley (20:10): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (20:14): Visit www.c4innovates.com and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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