An episode of “Changing the Conversation” podcast
Michelle Simons and Jim Higgins discuss the benefits of peer support with host Ashley Stewart.
June 3, 2024
[Music]
Ashley Stewart, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dr. Ashley Stewart, director of the Center for Health Equity at C4 Innovations. This episode is the third in a series about the Recovery Education Collaborative, also known as the REC. And today we have both Jim Higgins and Michelle Simons. Jim and Michelle are REC facilitators and they train recovery coaches. Jim is a person in recovery. He is a retired recovery coach supervisor. Jim, thank you so much for being here with us today.
Jim Higgins, Guest (00:39): Thanks for having me, Ashley.
Ashley (00:41): And we also have Michelle, who is a person in long-term recovery and an addiction workforce grant coordinator at North Shore Community College. Michelle, thanks for being with us today.
Michelle Simons, Guest (01:08): Grateful to be here. Thank you, Ashley.
Ashley (00:54): So how do you describe or define the REC, Jim?
Jim (00:58): The REC is a collaborative of a bunch of organizations in Massachusetts, a handful, and it’s about six months old now. And what we are doing is we’re doing recovery and recovery coach trainings. We’re doing some equity work. We’re doing education prevention work and outreach all across the state of Massachusetts. Michelle, what did I forget?
Michelle (01:20): The best part about it is it’s peer driven. We have also a new peer advisory committee as well. So not only are all our supervisors and everybody we work with, peers in recovery our allies as well as the advisory committee.
Ashley (01:36): That’s great. And some of our listeners might be wondering. So tell us what is a peer, who is a peer?
Michelle (01:43): We kind of define ourselves as that, as a person in recovery supporting another person in recovery. So for people that aren’t familiar with recovery coaching, I’ve been clinically trained, but I realized that I always conducted myself as a recovery coach. And what that means is I used my personal lived experience as somebody in active addiction with substance use disorder and person in long-term recovery now, right? So I use my lived experience from both angles when I was working with folks. And I didn’t have a name for it until I was sent to a training to be a recovery coach and be trained to train the Recovery Coach Academy. And when I started to listen all about that training, I realized, oh, I’ve been doing this all my life.
(02:33): The cool part about having this collaborative with all our peers is our bosses are people in recovery, our co-teachers. So we all have this, what we say in recovery. This transmission line is almost like a spiritual connection to each other. Like, hey, been there. Yeah, me too. And there’s a level of depth that comes from those types of relationships, and I’m sure Jim can speak to that as well.
Jim (03:00): Yeah. And think back of when you were in high school, the peer pressures that you felt and the peer power, that’s where you acted on was because of the peers. It was because there was a mutual identification and trust and a bond. And that’s what we as people in recovery, reaching out to people who are not in recovery but looking to initiate it or just to maybe maintain it, there’s going to be an instant trust factor because we’re talking to them side by side as opposed to down to them or from behind the desk. And there’s instant bonds and it’s a great relationship. It’s very powerful. It can be very powerful.
Ashley (03:33): It is very powerful. And there’s absolutely nothing like it. There’s nothing that can replace or occupy the role that peers occupy. I noticed that you talked about recovery coaches and peers. Are those terms used simultaneously, interchangeably?
Michelle (03:53): Yeah, so they are two different roles. When we talk about recovery coaches, we’re talking about people in recovery from substance use disorder. The term peers is sometimes used for people in recovery from mental health or ongoing recovery. So there is a distinction. And with recovery coaching, we’re pretty clear about that. And I know the folks that are the peer coaches as well are pretty clear about wanting that sort of delineation.
(04:40): It’s important because just putting myself in the shoes of somebody either trying to get into recovery, recovery curious whatever, and being assigned, let’s say a recovery coach, that means somebody’s been there, done that. They know the dark side of addiction. They know. There’s that idea of, well, why would you do something like this? Or those weird questions that sometimes people will ask us, well, why couldn’t you just stop? Or didn’t you care about yourself? Why would you want to destroy yourself? Why when you were evicted from your apartment and went homeless, why wouldn’t that change things? And those questions, we don’t have to ask those questions to each other because we know that lack of control and that powerlessness over the substance. So there’s just a deep understanding of what we’ve been through and why we need to be so vigilant about our own recoveries today too.
Jim (05:22): And on the flip side, we do have that understanding, but that also fuels the passion that we have because we felt similar things. We’ve been in similar circumstances and we’ve been helpless and hopeless and broke and in prison and cast out from our families. But then we’ve also had the rise and the climb to recovery, and we know what that joy is like. I can’t believe we get paid to do this, [laughter] to help other people the way we were helped ourselves. So the peerage comes in on the front side and also on the backside.
Ashley (05:57): It’s beautiful. I think we don’t talk enough about how important it is to not have to explain so much to folks who are in a role to support us in a multitude of different ways. That’s a really important feature of having a peer in your life who comes into the conversation with a level of knowledge and a level of expertise that is healing. How does one become a peer? Obviously there’s the critical component of lived and living expertise. And in addition to that, is there something that folks do to become a peer?
Michelle (06:35): People that are interested in this peer recovery coaching, they would seek out the courses. So we have in Massachusetts for our Certified Addiction Recovery Coach, it’s called the CARC, C-A-R-C, and it’s overseen by this Massachusetts Board of Addiction Counselors. They would seek out the classes from the Recovery Education Collaborative or various other agencies. Of course, we’re going to promote the REC because they’re awesome. And as far as their courses, they’re typically free or very inexpensive. So removing those barriers as well.
(07:14): So somebody would seek out these courses, it’s 60 hours of education. From there, if somebody’s already working as a coach, they need 500 either working or volunteer hours and 35 supervision hours. So those 35 supervision hours would have to be by a recovery coach supervisor, which Jim mentioned earlier. He’s a retired recovery coach supervisor. I’m still actively working part-time as a recovery coach supervisor. But they would need those. It’s a reflective type of supervision that’s required. So once you have those three components, you would apply for the CARC certification, some fun forms to fill out and things like that. You’d send it in. Once approved, then there’s an actual exam, a written exam that the person would take to get the CARC certification, which is good for two years. However, you can work as a recovery coach before having a CARC. That’s just like an extra layer of legitimacy to the role.
Jim (08:18): The training Michelle just talked about, it takes a peer, someone with lived experience and has all that experience that gives us the bond, that gives us a connection. And then you add some training. And then now that gives us some expertise. And we’re not talking about training on toxology or anything. We’re talking about how to talk to people, how to have conversations, we’re talking about what goes into somebody’s mind when they’re trying to make a change. We’re talking about different stages of recovery and we’re talking about all the different pathways and resources. It’s really training, it is a training, but it’s just an education on everything that’s out there. And then you throw in cultural competency and equity, inclusion and diversity, power and privilege, just a lot of things that makes us even more streetwise and aware of where we’re at and who we’re talking with. It makes it such a powerful role and a fun role to be in, frankly.
Ashley (09:14): Yeah. I love that framing that you bring in, right, about the streetwise. It just goes to show that there’s something that is so unique and meritorious about having that direct exposure, the direct knowledge and the lived expertise as a form of credentials or being streetwise as you put it so beautifully, Jim.
Jim (09:35): I think that the coolest part about us being peers and interacting with peers is that we are other-person centered. So if I’m a recovery coach and I have a “recoveree” we don’t call people patients or clients, they’re “recoverees.”
Ashley (09:49): Right.
Jim (09:50): I have somebody assigned me. It’s that person. That person has to feel the peer vibe in order for the relationship to be good. I am in recovery from alcoholism. I drank my brains out for years, and I never had a drug problem. And I’ve been told many times after being matched up with somebody that they wanted somebody who did heroin or somebody who was younger. I’m in my sixties. Because that’s who they felt their peers were. And it’s important for me to know. And I say, you know what? It’s your call. It’s entirely your call. And I’ve never been frustrated or upset because, again, for the relationship to work, it’s got to come from the person that we’re serving.
Ashley (10:29): That’s an important point that you bring up, that people get to have choice and choice is such a big part of recovery in and of itself. But there’s choice in this too, in that people get to pick their coach. Michelle, what would you add?
Michelle (10:43): Hopefully, yeah, it’s great if you have a team of recovery coaches and the person has some options, especially if one isn’t a great fit, then you can say, Jim just said, oh, well, I want somebody that knows what it’s like to use heroin and I don’t know. One thing that’s coming in my head that I’m probably going to switch gears a little, but this is just such an important piece of it to me, is coming from the recovery coaching perspective, using our lived experience can be difficult at times, right?
(11:15): So this peer connection that we have, and the one thing that I am just so grateful for is that I have this team of people also in long-term recovery. So they’re not green, they’re not brand new — you know, these guys that are facilitators, it’s just given me such a different network of folks that know what it’s like to use, when you’re using something that can be slightly traumatic from your past, and you’re using it, and I’m sure doing DEI work like that, there’s some relatability there possibly.
(11:49): But when you’re using that, it starts to get into our stuff a little bit. So we really have to, there’s this concept of discovering and managing our own stuff. You are always kind of got to be sort of ready. Your stuff can be used in a funny way at times, and you’re like, oh, that stung a little. So it’s so important to stay balanced and use each other. And then as recovery coach supervisors, for me, and Jim might have a different twist on this, but for me, I think it’s really, really important for coaches to have recovery coach supervisors that are in recovery themselves because they’re going to understand the slippery slope that it can take.
(12:32): Because when we’re working, especially with folks in active addiction that are still using, and you might be applying some harm reduction techniques and telling somebody, here’s a safer way to inject your heroin or inject the crystal meth so you don’t get abscesses, that can really affect the coach, right? And if their past includes IV drug use, it can really, I hate the word trigger, so I’m not going to use it, but it can invoke an emotional response from the coach.
(13:01): And a lot of times we’re real thick-skinned, and I might go to Jim as my recovery coach supervisor and be like, no, I’m good. I’m good. And because we know how that affects us, I don’t doubt that that’s going to affect somebody as many times as they might say they’re good. So I might, as a recovery coach supervisor, let’s say Jim was the one coaching somebody like that, I might say to Jim, I might check in with him later that night and be like, bro, is everything okay? Because that was pretty serious stuff that you faced, things like that. So I think that’s important to have that person with lived experience supervising as well.
Ashley (13:40): Yeah, yeah. To that point about the intentionality of even how we talk about things, you say you don’t like the word triggering, I’m doing a lot of gun violence work. I use the word activated because the language of it is so intentional, and that same delicacy and intentional being delicate shows up with those intersectional experiences of lived expertise, of using your narrative and your story and your personal experience as a way to help to create a healing-centered approach for other folks. I think about some of the other experiences that connect to people’s recovery, like experiences with the justice system, like the family dynamics. No one might be able to anticipate what part of that could be activated in part of a conversation that comes up that you see in someone else that you’re responding to. Jim, what are your thoughts here?
Jim (14:36): Yeah. And we’re getting back to what’s a peer, again, we’re creating commonality and mutuality. Our education requirement for being a CARC or recovery coach is a GED or a high school diploma. And many think that that’s not enough. I myself, I’ve got a bachelor’s and a doctorate. I was a lawyer for 30 years. But what gives me my power with people when I’m coaching them isn’t my education pedigree or my degrees, it’s the fact that I spent a year in prison, because now I got some street cred because I’ve been in places where other people, now I have another type of lived experience that I couldn’t get in the classroom.
(15:17): And the fact that I share that freely and willingly is just, it can be very powerful. And I’ve learned when and where to share that, but it’s a powerful tool and it’s not the education, again, it’s another level of lived experience and commonality that I’m able to do in this setting that I wouldn’t be doing if I were a clinician, if I were a social worker [laughter] … walking around. I spent 2008 in prison. You all were electing Barack Obama. I missed that party, but I have not had my record expunged. I haven’t had that erased. And people say, why? I said, because to me, it’s resume fodder. For me, it’s a plus in what I do because it gives me some commonality with the folks that I serve.
Ashley (16:01): It is powerful. It is so powerful. And I also want to honor and acknowledge that you said you are able to discern when and where to share. I also want to acknowledge and honor that that’s tough too, to have to have that level of code switching to know when and where in being able to utilize or engage meaningfully that lived expertise.
(16:26): Jim, you started to mention something that gave you a unique type of perspective and approach to the work that maybe would be different than other professions, like social workers. As a social worker, I recognize that this is very different. So when you think about the differences in engagement approaches and how peers or recovery coaches might respond, like social workers or maybe other types of counselors who do not have that lived experience, how does that show up?
Jim (16:55): Yeah. Thinking of fighting a war. And there’s the regular troops, and those would be the clinicians and the social workers. And we are kind of like the guerrilla warriors. We’re the guys out there. We’re like the French resistance in World War II. We are out there in the houses and we’re creeping up out of foxholes. But we’re out there on the street with the people. And that’s really, one isn’t better than the other, but you take it, combine it, it can be a very powerful combination.
Ashley (17:22): That’s awesome. What about you, Michelle? What do you think?
Michelle (17:25): Being in these circles with social workers and clinicians and primary care doctors and things like that, actually this lived experience is now slowly being valued, right? It’s been a very slow climb for years, for almost two decades, I wasn’t open about my personal recovery in these circles. I was just like, I’m Michelle. I have a master’s and … you know, because that’s what I thought I needed to do to be heard. And in a sense I did.
Ashley (17:54): Yeah.
Michelle (17:55): [Laughter] Not going to lie. But but now slowly but surely, we’re moving a little bit. So you can feel it. You can feel the shift. And the REC is definitely a highlight. It’s like a little cherry. Here’s what we’re doing over here. We can create this recovery oriented system of care in other places. So I think it’s a great model of that concept.
Ashley (18:22: Yeah. For folks who are listening and maybe are some of those interprofessional teams, what kind of aligning professional support would be most appropriate, helpful, and what could that interprofessional team look like in terms of support?
Jim (18:41): There are interdisciplinary teams all over the place. There are coaches in courts, in the judicial system working with probation officers and lawyers and judges and things like that. There are many behavioral health providers. There are coaches working alongside with clinicians and prescribers and therapists and doctors. So it’s understanding each other’s roles, and it’s understanding each other’s responsibilities. Something that a peer has that other professionals don’t is we have that peer bond with people. And it’s almost like there’s a confidentiality level that I’m going to keep with my recoveree that I may not disclose to my other team members because that’s the basis of our relationship. In conveying that to the team members is sometimes hard and sometimes difficult. The conversation just needs to happen.
Ashley (19:29): Yeah. And that sounds like it’s rooted in respect and interprofessional teams have to be able to respect that unique type of relationship. Michelle, what do you think?
Michelle (19:40): If there was a way to level the playing field to not have our identity attached to the letters after our name, right? And that’s really, like I said, we’re slowly moving in that direction, but there’s still, the doctor’s still going to be leading the team at the health center no matter what. They’re going to make the final calls and things like that. So I think we are all sitting at the same tables, which is huge, and the lived experience is valued. But I think we have some ways to go still, just from experience working in some of the health centers and my peers working in emergency departments and things like that, there’s still that big beast of hierarchy. [Laughter] And hopefully those walls are slowly coming down a little bit and people are realizing we’re just human and we all have important pieces to add to this. And that’s really what’s key is all of us valuing each other.
Jim (20:44): Things are happening, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. But I remember when I was at CICAR in Connecticut for the first time, they put recovery coaches in hospitals, and the pushback from the medical folks was really, really tough because they didn’t know who we were. And I remember going into Manchester Memorial Hospital and they didn’t give us an office. We had to work out of the cafeteria in there. And so we had four coaches that were going in. But after there was interaction with the nurses and the staff and the coaches, and they saw how the patients were responding to peers, they created an office for the recovery coaches because the coaches became a valued part of that team. And it just took time. It took some time. But man, the proof was in the pudding. It was really cool.
Ashley (21:32): That is so amazing. Wow. I can only imagine how much information, [laughter] and Jim’s perspective and ideas that are sparked as folks are listening to it because I myself am just thinking about so many other areas that I want to lean into in this conversation. I think in closing, one of the things I just want to do is uplift and honor peers. One of the things I want to do is uplift and honor. Yes, y’all can’t see us on screen, but we’re doing raising the roof hands over here, uplift and honor the great work that is being done in the REC as well as just uplifting the work that peers and recovery coaches and folks who are committed to the wellness, to the support, and to the pouring into love of folks during the recovery journey. Michelle, Jim, thank you so much for joining us.
Michelle (22:36): Thank you. It’s been great to be here. Great conversation.
Jim (22:39): Thanks. I don’t get to see Michelle enough. This has been great.
Ashley (22:42): And to our listeners, join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (22:47): Visit C4innovates.com and follow us on LinkedIn, and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episodewas produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
[Music]
Access additional “Changing the Conversation” podcast episodes.