An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
Keon Lewis and host Dwayne Watkins discuss empowering Black men to be strong leaders while being mindful of challenges and strengthening mental health.
June 30, 2025
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Dwayne Watkins, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dwayne Watkins, the Manager of Strategic Transformation at C4 Innovations. I am honored to be joined by Keon Lewis, who is a health equity consultant here at C4 Innovations, and also a doctoral candidate at the North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University. Keon, welcome to the show.
Keon Lewis, Guest (00:30): Thank you Dwayne and Aggie Pride to all of my fellow Aggies out here listening, and thank you for this opportunity to be a part of this very important conversation around the weight of leadership and mental health and as Black men, what do we do to reclaim our strength and empower ourselves.
Dwayne (00:48): Thank you, Keon. I cannot be more thrilled to have this conversation with you today and Aggie Pride to all of the Aggies out there. Let’s go ahead and dive right on into it. We will be discussing the Invisible Ache, which is a book that was written by Courtney B. Vance and Robin L. Smith. Keon was so gracious to share this gem with me during one of our staff meetings. The Invisible Ache is really a powerful exploration of the unspoken emotional struggles that many black men face, particularly those in leadership roles.
(01:23): So the book delves into immense pressure to project strength, while silently carrying the weight of systemic challenges, those personal traumas and societal expectations. The book in itself challenges those traditional notions of masculinity by redefining strength through vulnerability, self-compassion, and emotional intelligence. So through these personal stories, research and practical insight, the book underscores the important impact of historical trauma, racism, and mental health stigma, while offering those pathways towards healing and leadership that centers empathy. Today we’ll explore how these themes connect to black men in leadership and what it means to foster resilience while prioritizing one’s mental well-being.
(02:09): So Keon, the Invisible Ache really highlights how Black men in leadership face unique pressures. Many are expected to be strong, we are expected to be unshakable and resilient at all times. Keon, as someone who is and has been a mental health advocate, who is also a Black man, what are some of those mental health impacts that come with carrying this weight?
Keon (02:35): When we look at the book in itself, one of the things that really stood out to me is how it was important to identify the pain. Identifying the pain, and then taking the steps in reclaiming that power. So just as you brilliantly stated, being a Black man, being a student, a father, a husband, a brother, a friend, fraternal brother, etc., all of these factors, all of these complexities are what makes us unique as men and as Black men in this space. Along with that, our lived experiences.
(03:08): So when you think about the weight that we carry as black men, in that, we carry all of those things. We carry all of those lived experiences, we carry our likes, our dislikes, our personalities, our culture, and as all of these dynamics intersect with one another, we’re still going through this journey and trying to identify who we are. Being able to go through all these complexities and trying to self-discover while in the midst of doing that, maintain and sustain self-care, it bears and it brings a lot of weight that one has to bear on their shoulders, but also being able to sustain throughout their day-to-day operations.
Dwayne (03:51): You made some very great points, Keon. I wanted to ask you about just the overall expectations of leadership. What does that look like for many Black men in this country and those who are in leadership roles? How do you personally manage the stress and to avoid burnout and the emotional labor that is involved in maintaining that strength in these professional and personal spaces? As you identified with the other identities and affiliations in which you are a part of?
Keon (04:28): When you think about the complexities of leadership, you have to factor in all of those skill sets or those competencies as we like to call it. It comes with resiliency, perseverance, your knowledge, your ability to adapt, your ability to empathize your knowledge. All of these things are what encompass good leadership, right? But even with that, you have to be able to understand your leadership style and your type, and you have to be able to adjust to the different environments. And when you throw in the complexities of being a Black man, and oftentimes when you think about the Black men who hold these roles in these leadership positions, on many occasions, we are either the first or we’re just one of a few to hold those roles. And so that in itself brings its own level of pressure and barriers that we have to overcome.
(05:23): And so when we step into these environments as men and as Black men, we have to not only be mindful of that, but we also have to be twice as sharp, so that we’re not making common mistakes that one could look at as being inadequate in a leadership role, but also we got to think outside the box. We’ve got to be strategic. So a lot of that comes with experience. It comes with what we’ve learned through our lived experiences in school, through our families, other networking partnerships, all of these things. And so when we step into the office, or outside the office or in the community, or in other capacities, these are just some of the many competencies that we have to have with us in order to be effective, but to also to be able to sustain the roles that we have.
Dwayne (06:10): Again, great, great points, Keon. How do these pressures show up differently in your personal space versus your professional space? And by personal, you could be a leader of your family as you are a father, you are a partner. What does that leadership look like in that regard versus your professional spaces? Or do the two just kind of mix and blend throughout?
Keon (06:38): We always talk about being our authentic selves and bringing our true selves in and outside of the workplace. But let’s be honest, when we come into the office, we only bring a certain percentage of that because if people really saw the way we conducted ourselves outside of the office, when we’re truly letting our hair down and turning the music up loud, eating the things that we eat, there’s often the stigma that if they see that or if they hear that, they may look at us differently. The respect may or may not be the same.
(07:10): And so I, for one, would be able to tell you that there’s a huge difference between dad and husband Keon and subject matter expertise Keon. There’s a different level of flexibility of openness, and it’s not out of fear, but it’s more so just kind of being mindful of the environment that I’m in. But in the same token, there are some aspects of it that intersect. And so you want to be able to have a fine balance between that work and life to where you want to be able to do your job. You want to be able to do it effectively, but you also have to be mindful of the personal relationships, the dynamics that you have, the things that are going on in and outside of the household. And so all of those can play a unique factor, not only in your ability to do your job, but also in your overall performance.
(08:01): So I think when it boils down to what good leaders have to have a way of balancing that work and that life dynamic so that you’re able to be successful in both of them as much as you possibly can. But at the same token, you don’t want one to intercede into the other because that creates a barrier, that creates poor performance. That in itself can create a domino effect on your ability to be effective as a leader and your ability to be effective when you’re at home.
Dwayne (08:32): Thank you, Keon, for breaking that down for me. And then again, talking about that intersectionality and where at home, although you are the leader of your family and at work, you may be leading the team, but it is different because of the fact that you have to be mindful of the space. And although in a perfect world, we are encouraged to show up as ourselves, but to your point, are we really beating our full selves when we come into work and we have to lead in these roles and these teams?
(09:04): And primarily to your point, is because a lot of times we are the first or we are one of the only ones, and we don’t want to mess that up not only for ourselves, but for any of the future generations or future leaders or thought provokers that are coming up behind us as well as we leave that door open for them. So I want to take a shift just a little bit, because I know the book also challenges these narratives by encouraging a new definition of strength, one that is rooted in vulnerability and self compassion. So how do you think we can begin to shift the way Black men view strength in leadership?
Keon (09:48): I think it starts number one, from within our ability to… I love the way the book references this and how we need to identify who we are. What is that thing that has given us pain? Is it something within our families? Is it something outside in the workplace? Is it the profession that we’re in, something traumatic? Whatever that dynamic may be, how do we have that level of self transparency, the way we identify what that pain is, but then what are the steps we’re taking to address it, to alleviate or to mitigate those pains in the future.
(10:25): And so when we look at it from the scope of leadership and especially Black leadership, we have to be willing to identify examples of what that good leadership looks like. And I love the way the book highlights that in where it talks about Courtney’s experience with matriculating through school, going through college, eventually becoming the renowned actor and philanthropist and advocate for mental health and suicide prevention that he is. But in order to get to that point, he had to go through his own growing pains, go through his own exploration, but along the way, he found individuals to kind of mentor, to learn from, to build from. So when you think about it with your question in the scope of what leadership looks like and how do we shift that paradigm, it begins with that self introspection. But then along the way, we got to be able to identify those individuals that we may not necessarily have to copy, but maybe we can learn some of those good practices from them that we can pattern and develop ourselves and then matriculate through our own leadership growth.
Dwayne (11:30): That’s a great perspective, Keon. As you talk about redefining strength, what kind of tools would you give someone around just embracing that emotional intelligence, because we know a lot of times culturally? Just being a Black man, we’re always taught to be stoic, we’re always taught to not have any emotions, to not show any level of vulnerability. So what can one do to begin to embrace that emotional intelligence and to kind of break free from these outdated cultural norms?
Keon (12:05): Yeah, that right there is the $20,000 question, right? How do we look at this history of the way masculinity has been defined growing up in households, whether you were raised by both parents or single parent father, single parent mother, there are certain things that have been taught and embedded in us as men and often which can be toxic, especially when it talks about, and just as you reference with our inability to express our emotions or big boys don’t cry. Don’t wear your heart on your sleeve. You got to suck it up. You got to push through, you got to persevere.
(12:45): Now, realizing that over the course of time, that can be extremely damaging and often leads to a lot of us as Black men with an inability to be able to express ourselves authentically. So in order to combat that, it starts at home. It starts with self. It starts with being able to have those comfortable conversations amongst family or amongst someone that you trust, whether it’s a family member, a colleague, a life partner, a close friend, whoever that individual may be.
(13:15): I think it starts there because as we know, when it comes to having these types of in-depth and open and transparent conversations, you don’t necessarily want to start that with a room full of strangers because you don’t know what they’re going to do with their information, right? You don’t know how they’re going to utilize it against you or put it out there and not be mindful of that discretion that’s supposed to be demonstrated and upheld, but it begins at home and it starts as a process to grow and to be comfortable and having those conversations. And then from there, to try to find and identify those group settings, focal groups, counseling, whatever that dynamic may be in which you can feel comfortable and openly share and express your emotions, express the things that you’re going through with a total stranger, but know that you’re doing it in a safe space.
Dwayne (14:04): A safe space is going to be vital for any of this as to your point, to truly redefine strength. We need to challenge these long-health beliefs and replace them with healthier, less toxic, more sustainable leadership practice. So in preparation for this conversation to you, Keon, I was sitting back and I was thinking, “Well, what are some key approaches that we can begin to do to shift these views on strength?”
(14:35): And so, like you said, encouraging those open conversations, creating those safe spaces, whether they are in the workplace, community settings or within our own families where Black men can just openly discuss mental health leadership pressures, any emotional stresses and struggles without that fear of stigma. And then addressing the cultural and generational norms. We have been taught since we come out of the womb, that showing vulnerability is unfortunately a weakness. So we just have to reframe these lessons with our sons, with our nephews, with our daughters, through education, through storytelling and that intergenerational dialogue we know can help shift these perspectives over time.
(15:23): And always going back to just challenging those stereotypes, just actively confronting societal narratives that portray Black men as emotionless or solely defined by our physical or professional strength, that media representation and just workplace culture and shifts. All of that is going to play a key role in breaking these harmful modes. And then just practicing and encouraging that self-compassion, being kind to ourselves, teaching that self-care and therapy and self-reflection are tools of empowerment. They’re not assigned of weakness by any stretch of the imagination. And leaders who take care of their mental health are better equipped to uplift those around them. Is there anything else, Keon, that I might have missed on that list for you or anything that kind of stood out?
Keon (16:20): No, Dwayne, I think you captured that perfectly. And I think one thing that I hope listeners really were mindful of that you shared was that intergenerational conversation, in that, in order to bridge these gaps, it’s going to require some really difficult conversations that happens between generations and especially now to where we have that comfort and that safe space to be able to say it’s okay to not be okay and you are in a safe space. You can share this with me. You don’t have to go through long links of that. Then I love the fact that you captured that. And really the only additional thing I would like to piggyback on is just really highlighting the platforms such as this book, podcasting and interviews, television articles that is elevating this conversation even more, especially amongst Black men and leaders in all spaces, in all capacities, and in all walks of life.
(17:18): I think that’s the other part when we look at intersectionality, all black men are not monoliths. We come in all different shades, different dynamics, different upbringings. But in the same token, we also understand the importance of the struggle and the barriers that we’re seeing and that we’re experiencing, and that there are some aspects of our way of life that can create unwarranted barriers systemically, as well as sometimes we can be our own worst enemy. And so I think that being able to utilize spaces such as these, and just as you brilliantly shared of really highlighting the scope of what steps and best practices are being taken by Black men to show that, “Hey, it is cool to get therapy. It’s cool to discuss this. It’s cool to express your emotions. It is very critical and it’s very important, and I appreciate you highlighting that.
Dwayne (18:14): No, I appreciate you for being in community and for sharing all of your amazing thoughts and insight and for sharing this book. It really was a great read, and it has been life-changing for me myself, who identifies as a younger leader, a Black man as well. I could see myself in every page of this book, and not only just from a black male perspective, but I think anyone that sits in a marginalized person or identity space could see themselves in this book as well. So are there any final thoughts that you want to leave with our listeners today for part one, Keon? I know we’ll be having another conversation some more as we’ll be delving deeper into some other themes that we wanted to talk about in the book. But is there anything else that you would like to leave with our listeners on this invisible ache?
Keon (19:09): Yeah, as we wrap up this part one of the series, final Thought I want to leave with readers is something that was shared with me in one of my courses at A&T, and we were talking about the difference between being an adaptive leader versus a transformational leader. And so when we look at being a transformational leader, often they are leading from the front. They’re not really inclusive of others’ voices, and so they are pretty much driving the narrative of what they want the ending to look like.
(19:39): Whereas, an adaptive leader is inclusive of multiple voices, they are understanding of the constant shift in our environments in society and one’s experiences and with what they bring and their educational level and all these things. And the idea is that we collectively achieve a goal. And so what I would encourage leaders is to really assess and really take a deep look at themselves to say, “Hey, how do I see myself as a leader? Do I want to be transformational only? Do I want to be adaptive only? Or is there a way I can mesh both of the two so that I can not only accomplish these goals, but also do it from a lens that is mindful of everyone’s wellness, including my own?” And demonstrating that empathy, as you shared, that is conducive to us all being successful in achieving a successful outcome.
Dwayne (20:34): Oh, man. I can’t think of a better way to end part one of this conversation. Thank you, Keon, for being just brilliant in your thought and the way that you see and all of the work that you are doing in this space of mental health, with emphasis on Black men. I am looking forward to continuing this in part two of this series.
Keon (20:58): Thank you.
Dwayne (20:59): And to our listeners, please join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (21:04): Visit c4innovates.com and follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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