An episode of Changing the Conversation podcast
Keon Lewis and host Dwayne Watkins continue to discuss empowering Black men to be strong leaders while being mindful of challenges and strengthening mental health.
July 14, 2025
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Dwayne Watkins, Host (00:05): Hello and welcome to Changing the Conversation. I’m your host, Dwayne Watkins, the Manager of Strategic Transformation at C4 Innovations. And today part two of a conversation on The Invisible Ache, which is a powerful book by Courtney B. Vance and Robin L. Smith. If you missed the first part of this conversation, you can find a link to it in the show notes.
(00:30): I am honored to be joined again with my brother, Keon Lewis, who is a Health Equity Consultant and also a doctoral candidate at North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University.
(00:42): Keon, welcome back. How are you today?
Keon Lewis, Guest (00:45): Thank you, my brother. It is a pleasure to be back and I’m thoroughly enjoying having this much needed conversation.
Dwayne (00:52): Absolutely, absolutely.
(00:56): So Keon, what is the “invisible ache” and what does that look like for you and how has that shown up for you in your leadership roles?
Keon (01:05): The best way I could describe it is it is that pain, it is that thorn in the side, it is that constant nagging injury that sticks with us as individuals and especially as Black men. And it lingers because it is something that is as a result of what we experienced, whether it was as a child, teenager, adult, or currently still dealing with.
(01:32): So when we’re talking about the invisible ache, we’re talking about what is that barrier, what is that dynamic that brings us pain and prevents us from being our full selves? And then when I say our full selves, I’m talking about from a total wellness standpoint of mind, body, and spirit. It is something that prohibits that. Right?
(01:55): And so when I think about it in the context of my own invisible ache, just kind of being honest, I think about my own professional pathway, and finding my place in a world that has often provided so many hurdles and so many barriers and so many hoops to have to leap through just to prove that I have the skill sets, I have the resume, I have the talent, the knowledge, and the wisdom to be able to fulfill a specific role.
(02:27): And one of the constant roadblocks that I’m running into is that the roles I either get into, they’re either given to someone who I may feel that I may possess the skill sets to be not necessarily better at, but they may not necessarily bring the competencies that I think are required for that role. Or sometimes it could be issues of nepotism or whatever the dynamics may be.
(02:56): But I think my own invisible ache revolves around me finding my place in where I belong as a leader and being able to be in a space where I find joy in what I do, I find joy in the expertise that I bring, but then I also bring joy to the lives of those who I serve. And so being able to find a way to alleviate that invisible ache, it is my leadership journey right now.
Dwayne (03:26): Thank you for sharing your answer in which I resonated with on so many different levels.
Keon (03:33): What is your invisible ache? And when you think about the context of the book, what did it mean to you as you were reading about Courtney’s journey?
Dwayne (03:42): For me, my invisible ache is just the pressure to always be on, feeling like you must constantly perform at your highest level without room for mistakes or any level of vulnerability coupled with just that burden of representation, knowing that your success or your struggles may be viewed as a reflection of others who look like you. And that isn’t always fair.
(04:13): The code switching and authenticity battles, just balancing your true self with what is expected in professional environments and being in this space of health equity, especially in the times in which we are under right now as a country, my invisible ache is just kind of becoming that quiet exhaustion of advocating for equity, advocating for inclusion, diversity, and just social justice, while also ensuring that I don’t lose myself in the process. And that for me has always been a battle, and that ache is a little more achy on some days than others.
(05:01): But I am glad that that is something that I am still able to feel, because in these times, a lot of people don’t have those type of feelings or not feeling things and just are numb to it. So I am appreciative that I still am able to feel.
(05:16): However, those aches, they are achy and they do keep me up at night sometimes. And they definitely show up in how I supervise and how I lead and how I try to be intentional about my leadership, but also I am very, very intentional and unapologetic now when it comes to having those self-care practices as a result of. So thank you for asking me that question.
Keon (05:47): Absolutely. Well stated.
Dwayne (05:49): All right, so Keon, now that you have me in this vulnerable space, let’s stay there and let’s unpack this some more. One of the biggest barriers to Black men embracing vulnerability is the way society perceives them. Stereotypes often portray Black males as emotionless, aggressive or even dangerous. So what are the negative consequences of these stereotypes on mental health and leadership?
Keon (06:14): Yeah. These stereotypes and these stigmas are very real and they have a lot of negative consequences, especially on not only how we are viewed as Black men, but also in what leadership looks like.
(06:29): So as we’re talking from the context of this book that Courtney B. Vance and Dr. Robin L. Smith wrote, one would have to think about it from the standpoint of entertainment and the roles that Black men are often portrayed in and often depicted in as characters, as leaders, as the key representatives on the film, whether it’s a major film production or a TV movie or a TV show.
(06:59): And all of those things are constant factors and constant wavelengths of information that is going out into the world. And when we look at that, when we view it and when we see the things and how they’re portrayed in the news and how they’re portrayed in social media, all of that plays a role in this algorithm of life in the way we’re seeing the way Black men are portrayed and especially the way they’re represented as leaders.
(07:27): So yeah, there can be negative consequences to that, especially if the only thing we’re seeing is Black men being aggressive and being predators and constantly in controversy and negativity and all these things. And so it can create this impression that any Black man who is in this position or in this role is going to bring that with them. And so we have to be mindful of the way we’re being represented in media, outside of media, in literature, and in our articles, but also in the way we carry ourselves so that we don’t continue to perpetuate these negative stigmas.
(08:05): And so I think that it goes hand in hand, not only with our own responsibility as Black men and the way we carry ourselves, but we also got to hold the media, we got to hold literature, we got to hold science and all of the ways in which Black men are being portrayed, we got to hold them accountable so that we’re not just shown in a negative light. We got to show the positive and the strength aspects as well.
Dwayne (08:28): Those are all, all, all great, great points you just made, Keon. How do these stereotypes affect workplace dynamics for Black male leaders? And I know some of the ways that came to mind as you were talking was just that increased scrutiny and pressure. That was one of the first kind of thoughts I had. Black male leaders often feel the need to constantly prove themselves, and as we mentioned in part one, work twice as hard to gain the same level of respect as their peers. And they may be scrutinized more harshly and their leadership decisions may face greater resistance.
(09:04): Black men, we’re being perceived as intimidating. The stereotype of Black men as inherently aggressive can lead to those misinterpretations of their leadership style. So sometimes that direct communication or assertiveness, which would fly across the board for any other person in leadership, might be seen as a strong leadership in others and is sometimes misread as threat for us.
(09:28): And then that barriers to advancement. Just thinking about any of that implicit bias can result in Black male leaders feeling overlooked for promotions or high profile projects as we may be perceived as lacking the right in from our listeners, I love an air quote that you can’t see, but the right leadership style, which is often code for being too direct, not fitting the company culture or not being seen as collaborative enough.
(10:01): Keon, can you think of some ways to counteract these challenges that Black men in leadership face?
Keon (10:09): Yeah, that’s an excellent point and an even excellent question when we’re talking about how do we shift that perception, what are the ways, what does it look like, right? And so the most immediate way I can think of is through mentorship, through collaborations and opportunities to not only bring Black male leaders together, but to get them in rooms and get them in spaces where they can have these types of conversations.
(10:41): So when I think about my own experience and leadership development, I think about the enormous opportunity I got through ASTHO, the Association of State and Territorial Health Officials, and they had a program called and still continuing on called DELPH. And that’s the Diverse Executives Leading in Public Health. And although this program is open and it’s very diverse to all individuals to take part in from all backgrounds, the thing that I appreciated most was being able to walk into those spaces and see other Black men, whether they’re in the public health space or serving as a consultant, as a subject matter expert, business, finance, et cetera, but to be able to be in those rooms, to ask them difficult questions, to learn from their experiences, the dos and don’ts, the highs and lows.
(11:29): These are the types of platforms and opportunities that have to intentionally be created so that other Black leaders can learn from one another. It’s like the old expression our grandmothers taught us, that iron sharpens iron to where we have to be in those spaces to see them. We got to be able to see that it’s real to be able to see that it’s achievable. Otherwise, we’re only going to be able to catch the small glimpses of it that we see in media, that we read about in the news or read about in social media.
(11:58): So we’ve got to make sure that we have these intentional platforms, so dialogue and learning can take place. But then also we got to have that sustainable aspect where there’s continued mentorship to where we have those direct relationships and that network and opportunity with other Black leaders to learn from, to build from, and so that when the time comes and the opportunity presents itself, we can pass that torch down to those who are coming after us.
Dwayne (12:24): That is so correct, Keon, especially in public health. There are not many Black men in the field of public health. As I think about it, as I navigated through my master’s program, I was one of the only in trying to utilize my lived experience to change someone’s opinion or strategy rather of how they would address a public health concern that directly impacted any of my multiple identities, was always an interesting feat. But I know what kept me going and what kept me motivated and excited about the program is there were safe spaces for support, as you mentioned, just Black male leaders benefiting from those peer networks, those mentorship programs, and even affinity groups where we can openly discuss these challenges without fear and judgment that normally comes with it as well.
(13:12): And then I think about the advocacy and representation organizations that are actively working to break down the biases by promoting that diverse leadership styles and valuing those different approaches that we bring into these spaces.
(13:29): And then when I think about taking it off the person and putting it back on the organization and then creating that culture, companies, they have to begin to implement these biases trainings to assess the leadership evaluation process and just ensure that equitable promotion practices are happening and that people feel valued and seen in these spaces and taking all of that into consideration.
(13:59): And I know we also can’t talk about this without addressing that historical trauma, the racism and the systemic oppression. How have these factors shaped the mental health challenges Black men face today? And then in return, Keon, how do you think that that shows up in the leadership roles for these Black men?
Keon (14:22): Yeah. When we think about historical trauma and the impact on us collectively as a community and as a Black community, it is still prevalent to this day in that we see things, we experience things, and we get those constant reminders that as much as our ancestors and those who have come before us have fought to make those changes, there’s still much more for us to go, there’s still much more for us to accomplish. And it can bring a level of depression, anxiety, and stress. And seeing that experience that you have to have a strong resilience about self, you have to surround yourself with individuals to keep you uplifted, to keep you encouraged, to let you know that you have what it takes and that you are worthwhile and that you receive those affirmations, right? That you have a purpose and you bring the skills and you bring the tools that’s necessary to be successful as a Black man. And then transferring that into leadership.
(15:27): And so it shows itself in the leadership standpoint because just as you stated earlier, if we don’t have these executive leaders, if we don’t have departments, if we don’t have organizations that are mindful of the types of biases and how a lot of these biases and the systemic barriers that we have faced is a result of historical trauma, then oftentimes they’re going to continue to repeat themselves.
(15:54): And that impacts our ability to lead. That impacts our ability to be able to capture the ears of those who are our subordinates or those who are under our leadership, those who we are supervising. And so it creates this huge tug of war where that, hey, I have this title, I’ve earned this title, I’ve worked hard, and just as you stated, I was the only one in my graduating class to get through this, to get to this level. And now all of a sudden I get this job, and I have everyone looking at me as if this role was given to me because of DEI or was given to me because I was a Black man, not realizing that I earned it with my merit, right? I earned it because I worked hard. I earned it because I did what was necessary to get there.
(16:38): So all of that plays a factor into that, and you have to take into context the historical dynamics that led to that. And so as leaders, as Black male leaders in this space, we not only have to be mindful of that history, but in the same token, we can’t let it affect the way we view our future in the sense that we have what it takes in order to get there. But I think that we’re reaching a point where as Black men and as we are creating these spaces to have these types of conversations and to have these words of affirmation, it is going to become even more critical in the days that lie ahead to keep ourselves motivated, to keep ourselves inspired on the goal at hand.
(17:21): And that’s to continue to be better, to continue to grow as Black men and to continue to display what good and sound leadership looks like.
Dwayne (17:29): Absolutely, Keon. It made me think of this quote that my grandmother used to say. She would say that we were enslaved for 300 years, so it’ll take that long, if not longer, to fully break free from the mentality and systems that oppression created. And we live and breathe that every day as we see the different systems that oppression has created and the offspring in which that has created in itself as well.
(17:57): So I really appreciate the way that you’re unpacking this, Keon. It really shows that these challenges, they don’t exist in a vacuum. They are deeply rooted in history and ongoing societal structures. So let’s shift to some solutions. How can we create better mental health support systems for Black men?
Keon (18:19): We first start by conversing with Black men. We can’t … I remember when right at the height of COVID and there were grant opportunities, and there’s this massive push to figure out, hey, how do we develop these strategies? How do we mitigate the spread of this extremely deadly pandemic? What do we need to do? And I just remember sitting in these conference rooms and listening and immediately just telling them, “Hey, in order for us to accomplish this goal, we got to start with the people in which this strategy is directed for.”
(18:58): So if we’re going to create strategies and practical ways and best practices of resiliency and empathy and cultural competence and mental health and just mental health literacy, we got to start with the Black men themselves. Ask them, how do we connect this message? What works for them, what doesn’t work? But not only that, we want to make sure that we’re inclusive of Black men when these decisions are being made so that it’s not just a one-off, right? We’re not just sending a survey. We respond to the survey. They take that data and they create it. No, this thing has to be truly inclusive from beginning to end. But then, as we look further into those next steps, we’ve got to make sure that we’re including Black men from all walks of life, all age ranges, generations, so that we’re covering and we’re taking care of those gaps that may be missed as a result of that.
Dwayne (19:53): Absolutely. And Keon, we know that there’s a real need for that cultural competence and mental health care, period. So how can mental health professionals better support Black men in a way that acknowledges our lived experiences?
Keon (20:11): Well, for starters, mental health practitioners, clinicians, therapists, social workers, you name it, they can start that process really by beginning with active listening. And that is not just listening to respond, but really listening to learn and empathize and hear and learn from us as Black men and learn from these experiences. Because when we get into these spaces where we’re pouring out our heart, we’re pouring out our soul, we’re pouring out and opening up doors and closets and pathways that a lot of us never felt comfortable in doing so before. So that comes with a level of courage. And so as these practitioners welcome us into these spaces, they have to do it by active listening. But then after that, making sure that as they’re following up with us and following up with just the collective of Black men, making sure they’re doing it from the lens of really taking heed that this is a process. It takes time. And to really encourage Black men to give themselves grace in order to accomplish that.
Dwayne (21:15): Love that, Keon.
(21:17): I love for our listeners to leave this podcast with some real practical solutions. So beyond seeking kind of professional support, what are some practical methods that Black men can use to deal with the stress, the increased resilience, and foster these strong relationships that we know are needed to be great leaders in whatever organization or in their families?
Keon (21:44): One practical method I would definitely encourage my fellow Black men and fellow leaders in this space to really take heed to it is just when we talk about practicing mindfulness and meditation, all these things, what we’re saying, and especially for me as a leader, what I’m telling you to do is to have an agenda, have a goal, have a vision of what this looks like for you, because that total wellness, that collectiveness looks different for us all.
(22:18): So whether it’s getting to the goal where you’re comfortable in going to a counselor once a month, once a quarter, or if it’s getting to that vacation destination or saving a certain amount of money or buying that dream car, whatever that thing may be, you got to have a plan. You got to have that vision.
(22:38): And so one of the ways that you can do that is really just by starting with that vision or vision board and just really kind of mapping out what are the ways you want to get there, how do you want to accomplish this goal? But also in order to get to that, what is the level of support that you need along the way, physically, spiritually, and mentally?
(22:57): And so you’re charting this path, right? You’re charting these steps in achieving this mindfulness. You’re charting your steps for development. You’re charting your steps for growth. But in order to get to that, you got to have a vision, you got to have a plan. And be unafraid to jot it down, scratch those notes along the way, make errors, make corrections. Because this isn’t about creating a perfect plan, but it is about making sure that you push yourself, you motivate yourself, and you reach this desired goal that you want to get to. But also understanding that it is a process, it takes time, but most importantly, give yourself grace in order to get there.
Dwayne (23:37): Grace is so important. It’s so refreshing to hear about actionable steps that Black men can take in their everyday lives. But as we know, the first step to healing is recognizing and accepting our own struggles. So let’s just talk about what that looks like in practice.
(23:54):
Keon, for me, one of the most profound messages in The Invisible Ache is that the first step in healing and reclaiming power is acknowledging and accepting one’s grief. Vulnerability and asking for assistance aren’t signs of weakness, but rather bravery and self-compassion. So just in closing, what advice would you give to Black men who are struggling with this?
Keon (24:20): Yeah, that is a excellent point, and I would even go as far back as to reference something that Courtney spoke about in one of the most common analogies that he shared in this text, and I’m pretty certain you recall it as well, is where he talks about allowing the mud to sift through, allowing the mud to settle. And this notion of giving yourself time and grace, acknowledging what is that dynamic that is impacting you? What is that pain? What is that trauma? Whether it is a historical family dynamic, something that, a crisis that recently occurred or something you may perceive may take place, this process takes time. It is not something that occurs overnight. Grief impacts us differently. Grief is a process. Grief takes courage to overcome.
(25:14): And so I love the analogy that Courtney and Dr. Smith shares in this book, because that is exactly what it’s going to take. It takes time. And as we’ve seen, and for those of us growing up in the country, it takes time for that mud to settle, right? And it may happen in a day. It may happen in a week. There are a lot of different conditions that comes into play with that.
(25:36): And so give yourself time to sift through and to go through the emotions, the things that you are experiencing, the people that it’s impacting, especially yourself. And then as things begin to settle out, begin to identify your own strength and your own courage, and being able to get through it. But then also identifying those risk factors along the way so that you can better protect yourself along the way so that in the event this potential crisis may reveal itself again, you have those tools to support and to protect yourself and to protect those around you.
Dwayne (26:13): Thank you, Keon. Thank you for sharing your expertise, and for your vulnerability, and for the important work that you continue to do in this space, and for making mental health and mental wellbeing of Black men not taboo and not some bad word.
Keon (26:31): Thank you, Dwayne. Thank you for granting me this space to share my own respective journey to not only learn from yours. But even a bigger shout out to Courtney B. Vance and Dr. Robin L. Smith for putting together a masterful manuscript on Black mental health, Black leadership, but most importantly, resiliency and being able to identify the pains and the barriers that we’ve overcome as Black men, but then being able to reclaim my power along the way.
Dwayne (27:03): And to our listeners, please join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
Erika Simon, Producer (27:10): Visit c4innovates.com and follow us on LinkedIn and YouTube for more resources to grow your impact. Thank you for joining us. This episode was produced by Erika Simon and Christina Murphy. Our theme song was written and performed by Peter Hanlon. Join us next time on Changing the Conversation.
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